[nagdu] Talking points for convos with training centers' directors

Thu Sep 3 03:42:57 UTC 2015

Sandra,
There is a section of the ADA that covers fundamental alterations.
Essentially, this provides that an establishment doesn't have to
modify it's policies, practices, or procedures for a disabled person
if it means the goods or services would be fundamentally altered
This is why my mission is to figure out how exactly the use of a guide
dog fundamentally alters the adequate teaching of the NFB's
philosophy, and how it fundamentally alters the teaching services so
much so that students cannot even bring their guide dogs to technology
or Braille classes.
This is what our opponents have failed to explain, and what I hope the
directors will provide insight on.

Here's a blurb from the ADA FAQ on service animals on fundamental
alteration. From the looks of it, fundamental alteration doesn't quite
apply to the way NFB training centers prohibit the use of guide dogs
during classes.

EXCLUSION OF SERVICE ANIMALS
Q25. When can service animals be excluded?
A. The ADA does not require covered entities to modify policies,
practices, or procedures if it would “fundamentally alter” the nature
of the goods, services, programs, or activities provided to the
public.  Nor does it overrule legitimate safety requirements.  If
admitting service animals would fundamentally alter the nature of a
service or program, service animals may be prohibited.  In addition,
if a particular service animal is out of control and the handler does
not take effective action to control it, or if it is not housebroken,
that animal may be excluded.
Q26. When might a service dog's presence fundamentally alter the
nature of a service or program provided to the public?
A. In most settings, the presence of a service animal will not result
in a fundamental alteration.  However, there are some exceptions.  For
example, at a boarding school, service animals could be restricted
from a specific area of a dormitory reserved specifically for students
with allergies to dog dander.  At a zoo, service animals can be
restricted from areas where the animals on display are the natural
prey or natural predators of dogs, where the presence of a dog would
be disruptive, causing the displayed animals to behave aggressively or
become agitated.  They cannot be restricted from other areas of the
zoo.

See, the kind of situation that's going down doesn't quite fit. On the
surface, it seems like people looking for a loophole. We'll find out.
-- 
Raven
Founder of 1AM Editing & Research
www.1am-editing.com

You are valuable because of your potential, not because of what you
have or what you do.

Naturally-reared guide dogs
https://groups.google.com/d/forum/nrguidedogs

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of S L Johnson
>> via
>> nagdu
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 2, 2015 9:27 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: S L Johnson <SLJohnson25 at comcast.net>
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Talking points for convos with training centers'
>> directors
>>
>> Raven:
>>
>> Excellent list of questions.  I would ask how or why they think they can
>> get
>> away with violating the ADA by not allowing guide dog user's equal access
>> to
>> all areas and activities of their programs and facilities.  To me, they
>> are
>> in direct violation of this federal law.  As I said before, how can we
>> expect the rest of the country to follow the ADA when the NFB doesn't do
>> it
>> and daily denies access to those using guide dogs.  This doesn't make
>> sense
>> and must be stopped immediately.  I am amazed that this discrimination is
>> still going on after all these years.  I am also amazed that we haven't
>> seen
>> lawsuits from guide dog user's who have been denied access with their
>> dogs
>> at the NFB Centers.  I've never attended any kind of rehab center but,
>> believe me if I did, I would not tolerate this kind of discrimination.
>> It
>> is about time that all guide dog user's start fighting back when we are
>> denied equal access.  It is particularly offensive when it is the  major
>> advocacy organization for the blind doing the discriminating.  NFB, SHAME
>> ON
>> YOU AND NAGDU, SHAME ON YOU FOR NOT FIGHTING THIS!!!
>>
>> Sandra
>> SLJohnson25 at comcast.net
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Raven Tolliver via nagdu
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2015 10:02 PM
>> To: nagdu
>> Cc: Raven Tolliver
>> Subject: [nagdu] Talking points for convos with training centers'
>> directors
>>
>> Below is a list of some of the questions I will use as guidelines to
>> direct
>> my conversations with the training center directors, in the event that
>> these
>> individuals are reachable.
>> Some of these questions can probably be combined.
>> If you think a question sounds offensive or off-putting, let me know
>> which
>> ones and why.
>>
>> 1. What is your center's policy on guide dog use during classes?
>>
>> 2. In the past, did your center permit the use of a guide dog during
>> classes?
>> (If so, why was this permissive policy reversed?
>> or
>> Why does your center prohibit the use of guide dogs during all classes?
>>
>> 3. What difficulties or problems arise when teaching NFB philosophy and
>> independent living skills to a student using a guide dog?
>> and/or:
>> 4. What specific concepts are impossible or challenging to teach to a
>> traveler using a guide dog rather than a cane or alongside a cane?
>>
>> 5. What fundamentals of NFB philosophy and independent living skills are
>> disrupted by allowing the use of a guide dog during all classes?
>>
>> 6. Why does your center choose not to phase in or reintroduce the guide
>> dog
>> into the student's class time and O&M lessons?
>>
>> 7. Do you think using a guide dog is against NFB philosophy? Or, does it
>> contradict the way the NFB would like to portray blind people, or the way
>> the NFB would like blind people to think of themselves?
>>
>> 8. Have any clients accused you of practicing discrimination by
>> restricting
>> the use of a guide dog during classes?
>>
>> 9. How is your policy against guide dog use during class not a
>> discriminatory policy?
>>
>> 10. Are you in favor of working toward incorporating guide dogs into the
>> training of guide dog travelers? Why or why not?
>>
>> 11. Are the O&M instructors at your center willing to devise a plan for
>> learning how to teach O&M to students using guide dogs?
>>
>> Thanks for any input.
>> If you prefer to make any comments off list, email Ravend729 at gmail.com.
>> --
>> Raven
>> Founder of 1AM Editing & Research
>> www.1am-editing.com
>>
>> You are valuable because of your potential, not because of what you have
>> or
>> what you do.
>>
>> Naturally-reared guide dogs
>> https://groups.google.com/d/forum/nrguidedogs
>>
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>
>
> --
> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
> (513) 607-6053
>
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