[NAGDU] not sure if this post is allowed but have a question

Buddy Brannan buddy at brannan.name
Thu Sep 14 16:35:50 UTC 2017


Sandra writes:
> A dog is a well accepted animal in public and therefore most of 
> the time we don't have any access problems.  

By way of playing devil's advocate (why he needs an advocate is beyond me) ... Dogs are well accepted in public? Which is why there are all those "No dogs allowed" signs, right? Which is why people who use service dogs for things that are not guiding get a whole ton of grief about their as legitimate as ours service dogs? Which is why we, years and decades ago, had to fight and advocate for the laws that protect us from being booted out because, again, no dogs allowed signs? So if I'm understanding you correctly, the major difference here between our dogs and miniature horses, excepting of course for logistical concerns, is time and momentum? Do I have this correct? 

--
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Mobile (preferred): (814) 431-0962
Phone: (814) 860-3194
Email: buddy at brannan.name



> On Sep 14, 2017, at 12:15 PM, S L Johnson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Julie:
> 
> I think my disapproval comes from the fact that having a horse in most 
> public situations is not really practical.  No matter how much training they 
> have they are still a horse who cannot be tucked safely under a table or 
> chair.  They cannot live in small apartments in the city and there are 
> probably many other situations.  You cannot find hay for them to eat at the 
> grocery store.  I am sure there are a lot more major differences from having 
> our dogs.  A dog is a well accepted animal in public and therefore most of 
> the time we don't have any access problems.  The problem comes in now that 
> so many people are trying to bring things like pigs, goats and any other 
> animal they like and claiming it is a service animal.  For some people a 
> mini horse might fit into their life style and that is fine for them but I 
> am sure there are plenty of vehicles the horse cannot ride in and many 
> places that cannot accommodate such a large animal that cannot lye down 
> under a table.  I think most customers in a restaurant would object to a 
> mini horse standing up near their table.  At least our dogs fit out of the 
> way.   As I said, for someone out in the country with the proper outdoor 
> accommodations to keep a horse and plenty of space to exercise that horse, 
> then fine.  However, for most blind and disabled people, the dog will always 
> be the more suitable service animal.  As I said in my previous post.  I 
> would object to any dog in training or who has been fully trained if it 
> caused any disruption or danger to people or other their service dogs. 
> There is always room in the disabled community for new ideas but they are 
> not always practical for the majority of us.  I do apologize for not 
> realizing that the law had been changed and my information from 2009 had 
> been updated to include the mini horses with certain requirements.  Everyone 
> has their own opinion and I for one enjoy the open and honest discussion on 
> these subjects.  Now that is the last I will say on the subject before the 
> moderator gets upset.
> 
> Sandra
> 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Julie Johnson via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2017 11:02 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Julie Johnson
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] not sure if this post is allowed but have a question
> 
> I'd like to highlight something interesting in Sandra's post.
> *My main disapproval comes from being kicked
> by a mini horse guide in training that was at a national convention several
> years ago.  *
> 
> Just so I am understanding this correctly.  You oppose all mini horse guides
> because one acted inappropriately?  And you would feel the same about dogs?
> Dog's don't kick, at least not dangerously so, but they do certainly act
> inappropriately.  I'd be willing to bet anyone who has worked a guide dog
> for more than a few months has experienced their own dog acting up or been
> around another service dog who has.  The interesting thing is that we don't
> immediately decide dog's don't make good guides.  We instead conclude that
> the particular dog has issues that need attention.
> 
> 
> Julie
> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?storeid=1916046>
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: S L Johnson via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2017 9:05 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: S L Johnson
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] not sure if this post is allowed but have a question
> 
> Buddy:
> 
> My information may be out of date but,a according to the information I have
> saved on my computer they changed it to be only dogs as being permitted as
> service animals.  I do not have the exact date of my information so if there
> is more recent language to the law, can someone post the link so all of us
> can have it.
> 
> Personally I do not think the mini horse is practical for all situations,
> especially as you said in small cars, public transportation restaurants
> etc...  However for someone living out in the country with the room to
> accommodate a mini horse then even though I do not approve, what you do is
> your business.  This conversation does show that better education is
> necessary so all places of public accommodation are completely aware of the
> latest language to the law.  I am sure that Ann can clear up any
> misconceptions that may exist.  My main disapproval comes from being kicked
> by a mini horse guide in training that was at a national convention several
> years ago.  Both me and my guide dog were injured when we walked too close
> behind that horse as we attempted to get out of a very crowded room.  I
> suppose since she was still in training her trainer should have been
> watching much more closely especially in a crowded room full of blind people
> and our dogs.  I am sorry if my opinion is upsetting to anyone.  I would
> feel the same way if a guide dog or one in training acts in a dangerous
> manner resulting in injury to me and my guide dog.  We do have to be sure
> that service animals in training are far enough along with their training
> that their behavior is appropriate to be out in public.  Thanks for reading.
> 
> Sandra Johnson
> SLJohnson25 at comcast.net
> 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Buddy Brannan via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2017 9:28 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Buddy Brannan
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] not sure if this post is allowed but have a question
> 
> Hey Ricky,
> 
> Baltimore has nothing to do with this. Miniature horses are, indeed, part of
> the ADA definition of service animal.
> 
> You are correct, however, that your friends are badly informed. A shocker, I
> know, you can pick yourself up off the floor now. Apparently one can house
> train a horse. But even besides that, they wear a diaper for those happy fun
> horse presents so that your hapless friends don't step in them. They might
> also wear little cut down tennis shoes. Anne can address this better, seeing
> as how she has a guide horse, and I'm fairly certain her horse doesn't take
> a dump wherever it likes for people to just step in.
> 
> I'd have more of a concern about the horse at rest, since you can't exactly
> put one under your chair since they don't really lie down. If you took an
> Uber, I'd think you really *would* ned an SUV at the very least. That would
> be more of a hindrance to me, but maybe not.
> 
> --
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Mobile (preferred): (814) 431-0962
> Phone: (814) 860-3194
> Email: buddy at brannan.name
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 13, 2017, at 9:23 PM, Ricky Joe Cook via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> I read on a FB post that Baltimore has approved miniature horses as 
>> service animals in the schools. The person and their friends who were 
>> posting were not informed about service animals and were even equating the 
>> horses to our dogs. I was just wondering how others felt about miniature 
>> horses as service animals. They were making comments like oh I guess they 
>> are going to let the horses just take a crap any where so we can step in 
>> it. It has me really pissed off and upset.
>> 
>> I am sorry if this topic isnā?Tt allowed here if so just let me know. If 
>> so feel free to Email me off list rickyjoecook at comcast.net
>> 
>> Thanks.
>> 
>> Ricky Joe Cook & Darcy
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