[NAGDU] NAGDU Digest, Vol 158, Issue 3

Peter Wolf pwolf1 at wolfskills.com
Fri May 4 18:30:21 UTC 2018


Sandra,

Good question.  In your own case, I think that I may understand.  The freedom that working with a dog provides is awesome.   Your question also touched on how we all as individuals may have something that may affect us in or abilities and efficiencies, and how we meet and hopefully triumph through challenges in ways that others might not be aware of.

In my own case, I’ve lost neurological (proprioceptive) perception along with sight.  In other words, I used to have a bodily felt relationship with gravity.  I understood what “up” meant in a way that I no longer do.  It originated suddenly with vision loss and used to really freak me out.  But after these years of acclimating, it can get humorous.  It’s the 20th step, walking, and suddenly discover that  have listed over a few too many degrees to port or starboard and its like, “Whoah lookout!  Man overboard!”  Metukah walks a good path, but when I go out or over, that doesn’t necessarily stop me from clipping, body checking or taking someone down with the ship!  This is why I may add the cane.  

Walking with Metukah helps this a lot, both because her proximity provides a constant reference in space, (which in itself provides a reference for balance feedback)...and then of course her training.  But it’s a communicative reminder; I still don’t exactly feel where (I) am on the planet.  She can’t jump up into my nervous system from down there, and take over the controls to perceive what upright orientation might possibly feel like.  So for this reason, I may add add the cane particularly in crowded places.  It’s also the same situation with cane alone.  Both work well together.    

It sounds like your balance might be ok, as I also hear is the case from other blind folks I know.  Unfortunately, how I see what I see when on my feet is just just wrong, and it regularly through the day, it is better to stop looking.  I jokingly say walking kaleidoscope.  I’m kind of stuck between worlds sighted and blind.  Metukah is awesome, because otherwise, when walking stairs I see several competing steps, don’t know which one is air and which is solid, it is stepping off a thousand foot cliff into an abyss.  It’s always a relief to just put on opaque glasses or a sleep shade and trust my girl guide lead off to what I am certain is my death... then…phew, hey we made it, Cool!  I’ve got blind friends who’ve said they wouldn’t want to trade places.  So indeed, we all have individual challenges, and I keep learning when talking with others how there are so many different kinds of blindness.  And, there are so many folks walking around working with or overcoming things that we'd just never know, unless they said something about it.  It’s really kind of amazing to me.      

The little perk of course in all this, is that because I almost always have my cane on me, (sometimes folded, often extended), it happens to be right here and useful if necessary, to place it out there as a bright shiny object of attention in front of my dog when an aggressive one comes at us.  In airports, it’s to the point that I just know it is going to happen.  Usually they are sitting at cafe chairs, or pulled over next to a wall when we go by.   I even had one snap at us while entering TSA recently.  

So back to the important issue, and thanks Sandra for highlighting it:  How can we all begin a groundswell together, to address the need for ESA’s to adhere to the same behavioral requirements that we adhere to in ADA with our working dogs?  Who knows the way in through contacts, agencies, government officials etc.?  I believe that this must be clear and pointed properly.  I wouldn’t want to see it inappropriately backfire or degenerate into over-regulating actual working service and sight dogs, which could make getting a bona fide working dog unattainable for some who need it. 

With my best wishes,
Peter




On May 3, 2018, at 5:00 AM, nagdu-request at nfbnet.org wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Re: Travel and ESA's (Sandra Johnson)
>   2. Re: Travel and ESA's (Buddy Brannan)
>   3. Re: Travel and ESA's (Buddy Brannan)
>   4. Re: Travel and ESA's (Cindy Ray)
>   5. Re: Travel and ESA's (nellie at culodge.com)
>   6. Re: Travel and ESA's (Cindy Ray)
>   7. Re: Travel and ESA's (Vivianna)
>   8. Re: Travel and ESA's (Jordan Gallacher)
>   9. Re: Travel and ESA's (Jordan Gallacher)
>  10. Re: Travel and ESA's (Sandra Johnson)
>  11. Re: Travel and ESA's (Sandra Johnson)
>  12. Re: Travel and ESA's (Sherri Brun)
>  13. Re: Travel and ESA's (Cindy Ray)
>  14. Re: Special Report: Pets pose as service animals (NAGDU President)
>  15. Re: Travel and ESA's (Star Gazer)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 09:59:44 -0400
> From: "Sandra Johnson" <SLJohnson25 at comcast.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> 	<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
> Message-ID: <01517CBF59A742A7BF17485B6D593D6F at JOHNSON>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252";
> 	reply-type=original
> 
> Hello:
> 
> Why would you need to use a cane if your dog is a well trained safe guide? 
> In your case with some sight it seems that the cane would not be necessary. 
> Those of us who are totally blind do not use a cane with our guide dogs. 
> Didn't we get dogs so we can put the canes away?
> 
> I do agree that something must be done about all the untrained dogs out in 
> the public, especially in airports.  As Jenine said the rules are there but 
> not enforced.  So, as NAGDU is an organization of guide dog handlers, what 
> can we do about this issue?
> 
> Sandra
> 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Peter Wolf via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2018 2:32 AM
> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> Cc: Peter Wolf
> Subject: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
> 
> Wow guys.  It was just a couple of hours after writing to you all about how 
> important it has been to me for us in our family to hold a balance between 
> impeccable training and performance with ?ambassadorship? as a working team. 
> It included some of what I consider somewhat intimate sharing about the bond 
> and love side of being a team in our own personal style that meets what we 
> feel to be authentic to us (my wife and i both).  And how well it works.
> 
> Now I?ve read the heads up messages from many of you about the recent 
> disgusting TV show about buying ESA status for pets.  I am just incensed.  I?ll 
> bet many of you can share experiences like ours, of having been snapped, 
> barked and lunged at in airports and other places, or worse.  It now happens 
> every time we fly, which is probably 8 times a year.  It?s not enough that 
> our dogs ignore it.
> 
> If any of you remember, I?ve written that with spatial as well as sight 
> issues, I often have my cane working, even with my dog.  And, I am quick to 
> swing a floor arc around my dog, to arrive the tip on the floor between an 
> incoming fake service dog and my dog.  That?s about all it takes,  No 
> hitting, no violence - just movement distraction and a physical object 
> quickly placed between the dogs as a separating deterrent with lateral 
> movement that seems to be an effective distraction.  It seems to be 
> disorienting to an aggressive dog to encounter an object suddenly appearing 
> from the side.  We keep moving forward, or my dog stops and sits while I 
> address the problem.  I?m vision impaired, not totally blind, so I don?t 
> know how well this would work for some of you.  I can say at the least, this 
> poor dog behavior startles me, and we've been fortunate that none of us have 
> been hurt before.  When was the last time we dealt with this?  Let?s think 
> back?actually?yesterday afternoon.
> 
> I am formal calling on all of us to put our collective foot down about the 
> lack of training for ESA?s.  Who is the best, most potent place to begin 
> this process, who do we talk to?  This ethical and behavioral problem has 
> hurt enough of our real working dogs as a group of individuals, and will 
> only make life worse for us as people who have bona fide reasons to work 
> with them.  How can chip in here and name individuals in positions of power 
> to create a change, calling for initiating the necessity of ESA?s to adhere 
> to the same code of conduct that we do?  Let?s do something about this.
> 
> My best,
> Peter
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 10:15:00 -0400
> From: Buddy Brannan <buddy at brannan.name>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> 	<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
> Message-ID: <0DCB9B48-96DD-4B79-A671-E1CCDE0E073F at brannan.name>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=utf-8
> 
> I think Peter explained as much as he needs to why he sometimes carries/uses a cane. Moreover, there are occasions where many of us do use a cane in conjunction with a dog, or while heeling a dog, and perhaps not exactly in the same way that a full-time cane user does. None of which require an explanation. While it may not have been intentional, your tone comes off, at least to me, as unnecessarily confrontational. Of course, your feelings about people with low vision having guide dogs has been made pretty clear in the past, so this may well be coloring my perception.
> 
> ?Buddy
> 
>> On May 2, 2018, at 9:59 AM, Sandra Johnson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Hello:
>> 
>> Why would you need to use a cane if your dog is a well trained safe guide? In your case with some sight it seems that the cane would not be necessary. Those of us who are totally blind do not use a cane with our guide dogs. Didn't we get dogs so we can put the canes away?
>> 
>> I do agree that something must be done about all the untrained dogs out in the public, especially in airports.  As Jenine said the rules are there but not enforced.  So, as NAGDU is an organization of guide dog handlers, what can we do about this issue?
>> 
>> Sandra
>> 
>> -----Original Message----- From: Peter Wolf via NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2018 2:32 AM
>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> Cc: Peter Wolf
>> Subject: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
>> 
>> Wow guys.  It was just a couple of hours after writing to you all about how important it has been to me for us in our family to hold a balance between impeccable training and performance with ?ambassadorship? as a working team. It included some of what I consider somewhat intimate sharing about the bond and love side of being a team in our own personal style that meets what we feel to be authentic to us (my wife and i both).  And how well it works.
>> 
>> Now I?ve read the heads up messages from many of you about the recent disgusting TV show about buying ESA status for pets.  I am just incensed.  I?ll bet many of you can share experiences like ours, of having been snapped, barked and lunged at in airports and other places, or worse.  It now happens every time we fly, which is probably 8 times a year.  It?s not enough that our dogs ignore it.
>> 
>> If any of you remember, I?ve written that with spatial as well as sight issues, I often have my cane working, even with my dog.  And, I am quick to swing a floor arc around my dog, to arrive the tip on the floor between an incoming fake service dog and my dog.  That?s about all it takes,  No hitting, no violence - just movement distraction and a physical object quickly placed between the dogs as a separating deterrent with lateral movement that seems to be an effective distraction.  It seems to be disorienting to an aggressive dog to encounter an object suddenly appearing from the side.  We keep moving forward, or my dog stops and sits while I address the problem.  I?m vision impaired, not totally blind, so I don?t know how well this would work for some of you.  I can say at the least, this poor dog behavior startles me, and we've been fortunate that none of us have been hurt before.  When was the last time we dealt with this?  Let?s think back?actually?yesterday afternoon.
>> 
>> I am formal calling on all of us to put our collective foot down about the lack of training for ESA?s.  Who is the best, most potent place to begin this process, who do we talk to?  This ethical and behavioral problem has hurt enough of our real working dogs as a group of individuals, and will only make life worse for us as people who have bona fide reasons to work with them.  How can chip in here and name individuals in positions of power to create a change, calling for initiating the necessity of ESA?s to adhere to the same code of conduct that we do?  Let?s do something about this.
>> 
>> My best,
>> Peter
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sljohnson25%40comcast.net 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/buddy%40brannan.name
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 10:15:00 -0400
> From: Buddy Brannan <buddy at brannan.name>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> 	<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
> Message-ID: <0DCB9B48-96DD-4B79-A671-E1CCDE0E073F at brannan.name>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=utf-8
> 
> I think Peter explained as much as he needs to why he sometimes carries/uses a cane. Moreover, there are occasions where many of us do use a cane in conjunction with a dog, or while heeling a dog, and perhaps not exactly in the same way that a full-time cane user does. None of which require an explanation. While it may not have been intentional, your tone comes off, at least to me, as unnecessarily confrontational. Of course, your feelings about people with low vision having guide dogs has been made pretty clear in the past, so this may well be coloring my perception.
> 
> ?Buddy
> 
>> On May 2, 2018, at 9:59 AM, Sandra Johnson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Hello:
>> 
>> Why would you need to use a cane if your dog is a well trained safe guide? In your case with some sight it seems that the cane would not be necessary. Those of us who are totally blind do not use a cane with our guide dogs. Didn't we get dogs so we can put the canes away?
>> 
>> I do agree that something must be done about all the untrained dogs out in the public, especially in airports.  As Jenine said the rules are there but not enforced.  So, as NAGDU is an organization of guide dog handlers, what can we do about this issue?
>> 
>> Sandra
>> 
>> -----Original Message----- From: Peter Wolf via NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2018 2:32 AM
>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> Cc: Peter Wolf
>> Subject: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
>> 
>> Wow guys.  It was just a couple of hours after writing to you all about how important it has been to me for us in our family to hold a balance between impeccable training and performance with ?ambassadorship? as a working team. It included some of what I consider somewhat intimate sharing about the bond and love side of being a team in our own personal style that meets what we feel to be authentic to us (my wife and i both).  And how well it works.
>> 
>> Now I?ve read the heads up messages from many of you about the recent disgusting TV show about buying ESA status for pets.  I am just incensed.  I?ll bet many of you can share experiences like ours, of having been snapped, barked and lunged at in airports and other places, or worse.  It now happens every time we fly, which is probably 8 times a year.  It?s not enough that our dogs ignore it.
>> 
>> If any of you remember, I?ve written that with spatial as well as sight issues, I often have my cane working, even with my dog.  And, I am quick to swing a floor arc around my dog, to arrive the tip on the floor between an incoming fake service dog and my dog.  That?s about all it takes,  No hitting, no violence - just movement distraction and a physical object quickly placed between the dogs as a separating deterrent with lateral movement that seems to be an effective distraction.  It seems to be disorienting to an aggressive dog to encounter an object suddenly appearing from the side.  We keep moving forward, or my dog stops and sits while I address the problem.  I?m vision impaired, not totally blind, so I don?t know how well this would work for some of you.  I can say at the least, this poor dog behavior startles me, and we've been fortunate that none of us have been hurt before.  When was the last time we dealt with this?  Let?s think back?actually?yesterday afternoon.
>> 
>> I am formal calling on all of us to put our collective foot down about the lack of training for ESA?s.  Who is the best, most potent place to begin this process, who do we talk to?  This ethical and behavioral problem has hurt enough of our real working dogs as a group of individuals, and will only make life worse for us as people who have bona fide reasons to work with them.  How can chip in here and name individuals in positions of power to create a change, calling for initiating the necessity of ESA?s to adhere to the same code of conduct that we do?  Let?s do something about this.
>> 
>> My best,
>> Peter
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sljohnson25%40comcast.net 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/buddy%40brannan.name
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 09:29:53 -0500
> From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog
> 	Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
> Message-ID: <00ef01d3e222$09df4930$1d9ddb90$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="utf-8"
> 
> I think we can lay to rest the use of the cane with the dog issue. I am here to help.
> Cindy Lou Ray, Moderator
> cindyray at gmail.com
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Buddy Brannan via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, May 2, 2018 9:15 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Buddy Brannan <buddy at brannan.name>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
> 
> I think Peter explained as much as he needs to why he sometimes carries/uses a cane. Moreover, there are occasions where many of us do use a cane in conjunction with a dog, or while heeling a dog, and perhaps not exactly in the same way that a full-time cane user does. None of which require an explanation. While it may not have been intentional, your tone comes off, at least to me, as unnecessarily confrontational. Of course, your feelings about people with low vision having guide dogs has been made pretty clear in the past, so this may well be coloring my perception.
> 
> ?Buddy
> 
>> On May 2, 2018, at 9:59 AM, Sandra Johnson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Hello:
>> 
>> Why would you need to use a cane if your dog is a well trained safe guide? In your case with some sight it seems that the cane would not be necessary. Those of us who are totally blind do not use a cane with our guide dogs. Didn't we get dogs so we can put the canes away?
>> 
>> I do agree that something must be done about all the untrained dogs out in the public, especially in airports.  As Jenine said the rules are there but not enforced.  So, as NAGDU is an organization of guide dog handlers, what can we do about this issue?
>> 
>> Sandra
>> 
>> -----Original Message----- From: Peter Wolf via NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2018 2:32 AM
>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> Cc: Peter Wolf
>> Subject: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
>> 
>> Wow guys.  It was just a couple of hours after writing to you all about how important it has been to me for us in our family to hold a balance between impeccable training and performance with ?ambassadorship? as a working team. It included some of what I consider somewhat intimate sharing about the bond and love side of being a team in our own personal style that meets what we feel to be authentic to us (my wife and i both).  And how well it works.
>> 
>> Now I?ve read the heads up messages from many of you about the recent disgusting TV show about buying ESA status for pets.  I am just incensed.  I?ll bet many of you can share experiences like ours, of having been snapped, barked and lunged at in airports and other places, or worse.  It now happens every time we fly, which is probably 8 times a year.  It?s not enough that our dogs ignore it.
>> 
>> If any of you remember, I?ve written that with spatial as well as sight issues, I often have my cane working, even with my dog.  And, I am quick to swing a floor arc around my dog, to arrive the tip on the floor between an incoming fake service dog and my dog.  That?s about all it takes,  No hitting, no violence - just movement distraction and a physical object quickly placed between the dogs as a separating deterrent with lateral movement that seems to be an effective distraction.  It seems to be disorienting to an aggressive dog to encounter an object suddenly appearing from the side.  We keep moving forward, or my dog stops and sits while I address the problem.  I?m vision impaired, not totally blind, so I don?t know how well this would work for some of you.  I can say at the least, this poor dog behavior startles me, and we've been fortunate that none of us have been hurt before.  When was the last time we dealt with this?  Let?s think back?actually?yesterday afternoon.
>> 
>> I am formal calling on all of us to put our collective foot down about the lack of training for ESA?s.  Who is the best, most potent place to begin this process, who do we talk to?  This ethical and behavioral problem has hurt enough of our real working dogs as a group of individuals, and will only make life worse for us as people who have bona fide reasons to work with them.  How can chip in here and name individuals in positions of power to create a change, calling for initiating the necessity of ESA?s to adhere to the same code of conduct that we do?  Let?s do something about this.
>> 
>> My best,
>> Peter
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sljohnson25%40comcast.net 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/buddy%40brannan.name
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 09:35:13 -0500
> From: <nellie at culodge.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog
> 	Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
> Message-ID: <00dc01d3e222$c857a970$5906fc50$@culodge.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
> 
> Wow, for a site that professes to be a safe, non-judgmental venue to ask
> questions, share experiences and offer advice, more often than not get
> comments such as this which in my opinion are rude, and attempt to include
> all of us guide dog users to be melded into the same group with  a select
> few people's idea of how a guide dog team should be defined.  
> 
> I personally do not use my cane when out with my dog but I certainly do not
> "throw stones" at those who do.  I do know of quite a few guide dog users
> who use the cane in conjunction with their dog.  Everyone is different and
> it is not necessary for any of us to explain why or why not we use a cane or
> anything else for that matter.
> 
> -Janell 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sandra Johnson
> via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, May 2, 2018 9:00 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Sandra Johnson <SLJohnson25 at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
> 
> Hello:
> 
> Why would you need to use a cane if your dog is a well trained safe guide? 
> In your case with some sight it seems that the cane would not be necessary. 
> Those of us who are totally blind do not use a cane with our guide dogs. 
> Didn't we get dogs so we can put the canes away?
> 
> I do agree that something must be done about all the untrained dogs out in
> the public, especially in airports.  As Jenine said the rules are there but
> not enforced.  So, as NAGDU is an organization of guide dog handlers, what
> can we do about this issue?
> 
> Sandra
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Wolf via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2018 2:32 AM
> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> Cc: Peter Wolf
> Subject: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
> 
> Wow guys.  It was just a couple of hours after writing to you all about how
> important it has been to me for us in our family to hold a balance between
> impeccable training and performance with 'ambassadorship' as a working team.
> 
> It included some of what I consider somewhat intimate sharing about the bond
> and love side of being a team in our own personal style that meets what we
> feel to be authentic to us (my wife and i both).  And how well it works.
> 
> Now I've read the heads up messages from many of you about the recent
> disgusting TV show about buying ESA status for pets.  I am just incensed.
> I'll bet many of you can share experiences like ours, of having been
> snapped, barked and lunged at in airports and other places, or worse.  It
> now happens every time we fly, which is probably 8 times a year.  It's not
> enough that our dogs ignore it.
> 
> If any of you remember, I've written that with spatial as well as sight
> issues, I often have my cane working, even with my dog.  And, I am quick to
> swing a floor arc around my dog, to arrive the tip on the floor between an
> incoming fake service dog and my dog.  That's about all it takes,  No
> hitting, no violence - just movement distraction and a physical object
> quickly placed between the dogs as a separating deterrent with lateral
> movement that seems to be an effective distraction.  It seems to be
> disorienting to an aggressive dog to encounter an object suddenly appearing
> from the side.  We keep moving forward, or my dog stops and sits while I
> address the problem.  I'm vision impaired, not totally blind, so I don't
> know how well this would work for some of you.  I can say at the least, this
> poor dog behavior startles me, and we've been fortunate that none of us have
> been hurt before.  When was the last time we dealt with this?  Let's think
> back.actually.yesterday afternoon.
> 
> I am formal calling on all of us to put our collective foot down about the
> lack of training for ESA's.  Who is the best, most potent place to begin
> this process, who do we talk to?  This ethical and behavioral problem has
> hurt enough of our real working dogs as a group of individuals, and will
> only make life worse for us as people who have bona fide reasons to work
> with them.  How can chip in here and name individuals in positions of power
> to create a change, calling for initiating the necessity of ESA's to adhere
> to the same code of conduct that we do?  Let's do something about this.
> 
> My best,
> Peter
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sljohnson25%40comcast.net
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/nellie%40culodge.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 09:39:39 -0500
> From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog
> 	Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
> Message-ID: <00f501d3e223$671fb3e0$355f1ba0$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
> 
> I have asked that this conversation stop right now. I think we can get past
> it. I've had my own comments on the issue, but let's please not make it a
> thread. We all have our moments of judgmental from time to time. Perhaps if
> we think through what we are about to say before we say it, this would be
> helpful.
> 
> Cindy Lou Ray, Moderator
> cindyray at gmail.com
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Janell via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, May 2, 2018 9:35 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: nellie at culodge.com
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
> 
> Wow, for a site that professes to be a safe, non-judgmental venue to ask
> questions, share experiences and offer advice, more often than not get
> comments such as this which in my opinion are rude, and attempt to include
> all of us guide dog users to be melded into the same group with  a select
> few people's idea of how a guide dog team should be defined.  
> 
> I personally do not use my cane when out with my dog but I certainly do not
> "throw stones" at those who do.  I do know of quite a few guide dog users
> who use the cane in conjunction with their dog.  Everyone is different and
> it is not necessary for any of us to explain why or why not we use a cane or
> anything else for that matter.
> 
> -Janell 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sandra Johnson
> via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, May 2, 2018 9:00 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Sandra Johnson <SLJohnson25 at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
> 
> Hello:
> 
> Why would you need to use a cane if your dog is a well trained safe guide? 
> In your case with some sight it seems that the cane would not be necessary. 
> Those of us who are totally blind do not use a cane with our guide dogs. 
> Didn't we get dogs so we can put the canes away?
> 
> I do agree that something must be done about all the untrained dogs out in
> the public, especially in airports.  As Jenine said the rules are there but
> not enforced.  So, as NAGDU is an organization of guide dog handlers, what
> can we do about this issue?
> 
> Sandra
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Wolf via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2018 2:32 AM
> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> Cc: Peter Wolf
> Subject: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
> 
> Wow guys.  It was just a couple of hours after writing to you all about how
> important it has been to me for us in our family to hold a balance between
> impeccable training and performance with 'ambassadorship' as a working team.
> 
> It included some of what I consider somewhat intimate sharing about the bond
> and love side of being a team in our own personal style that meets what we
> feel to be authentic to us (my wife and i both).  And how well it works.
> 
> Now I've read the heads up messages from many of you about the recent
> disgusting TV show about buying ESA status for pets.  I am just incensed.
> I'll bet many of you can share experiences like ours, of having been
> snapped, barked and lunged at in airports and other places, or worse.  It
> now happens every time we fly, which is probably 8 times a year.  It's not
> enough that our dogs ignore it.
> 
> If any of you remember, I've written that with spatial as well as sight
> issues, I often have my cane working, even with my dog.  And, I am quick to
> swing a floor arc around my dog, to arrive the tip on the floor between an
> incoming fake service dog and my dog.  That's about all it takes,  No
> hitting, no violence - just movement distraction and a physical object
> quickly placed between the dogs as a separating deterrent with lateral
> movement that seems to be an effective distraction.  It seems to be
> disorienting to an aggressive dog to encounter an object suddenly appearing
> from the side.  We keep moving forward, or my dog stops and sits while I
> address the problem.  I'm vision impaired, not totally blind, so I don't
> know how well this would work for some of you.  I can say at the least, this
> poor dog behavior startles me, and we've been fortunate that none of us have
> been hurt before.  When was the last time we dealt with this?  Let's think
> back.actually.yesterday afternoon.
> 
> I am formal calling on all of us to put our collective foot down about the
> lack of training for ESA's.  Who is the best, most potent place to begin
> this process, who do we talk to?  This ethical and behavioral problem has
> hurt enough of our real working dogs as a group of individuals, and will
> only make life worse for us as people who have bona fide reasons to work
> with them.  How can chip in here and name individuals in positions of power
> to create a change, calling for initiating the necessity of ESA's to adhere
> to the same code of conduct that we do?  Let's do something about this.
> 
> My best,
> Peter
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sljohnson25%40comcast.net
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/nellie%40culodge.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 10:48:52 -0500
> From: Vivianna <irishana at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> 	<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
> Message-ID: <C7B9F6E4-E472-49F1-AEE9-19BEB9693AA9 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=utf-8
> 
> Hi All,
> It?s my opinion that, what seems to get the most attention these days is, videos.
> We should all get familiar with taking videos on our phones.  Then, be ready and willing to use said videos all over the place.  Post em on your facebook.  Email em all over the place.  Send em to the media.  You get the idea.
> The louder we are, the more folks will become educated about such things.  Hopefully!
> This goes for Uber and Lyft incidents as well.  Document, document document and spread far and wide.
> Telling us on this list is good but, that won?t get the problems solved.
> 
> Vivianna
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On May 2, 2018, at 9:39 AM, Cindy Ray via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> I have asked that this conversation stop right now. I think we can get past
>> it. I've had my own comments on the issue, but let's please not make it a
>> thread. We all have our moments of judgmental from time to time. Perhaps if
>> we think through what we are about to say before we say it, this would be
>> helpful.
>> 
>> Cindy Lou Ray, Moderator
>> cindyray at gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Janell via NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 2, 2018 9:35 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: nellie at culodge.com
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
>> 
>> Wow, for a site that professes to be a safe, non-judgmental venue to ask
>> questions, share experiences and offer advice, more often than not get
>> comments such as this which in my opinion are rude, and attempt to include
>> all of us guide dog users to be melded into the same group with  a select
>> few people's idea of how a guide dog team should be defined.  
>> 
>> I personally do not use my cane when out with my dog but I certainly do not
>> "throw stones" at those who do.  I do know of quite a few guide dog users
>> who use the cane in conjunction with their dog.  Everyone is different and
>> it is not necessary for any of us to explain why or why not we use a cane or
>> anything else for that matter.
>> 
>> -Janell 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sandra Johnson
>> via NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 2, 2018 9:00 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Sandra Johnson <SLJohnson25 at comcast.net>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
>> 
>> Hello:
>> 
>> Why would you need to use a cane if your dog is a well trained safe guide? 
>> In your case with some sight it seems that the cane would not be necessary. 
>> Those of us who are totally blind do not use a cane with our guide dogs. 
>> Didn't we get dogs so we can put the canes away?
>> 
>> I do agree that something must be done about all the untrained dogs out in
>> the public, especially in airports.  As Jenine said the rules are there but
>> not enforced.  So, as NAGDU is an organization of guide dog handlers, what
>> can we do about this issue?
>> 
>> Sandra
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Peter Wolf via NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2018 2:32 AM
>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> Cc: Peter Wolf
>> Subject: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
>> 
>> Wow guys.  It was just a couple of hours after writing to you all about how
>> important it has been to me for us in our family to hold a balance between
>> impeccable training and performance with 'ambassadorship' as a working team.
>> 
>> It included some of what I consider somewhat intimate sharing about the bond
>> and love side of being a team in our own personal style that meets what we
>> feel to be authentic to us (my wife and i both).  And how well it works.
>> 
>> Now I've read the heads up messages from many of you about the recent
>> disgusting TV show about buying ESA status for pets.  I am just incensed.
>> I'll bet many of you can share experiences like ours, of having been
>> snapped, barked and lunged at in airports and other places, or worse.  It
>> now happens every time we fly, which is probably 8 times a year.  It's not
>> enough that our dogs ignore it.
>> 
>> If any of you remember, I've written that with spatial as well as sight
>> issues, I often have my cane working, even with my dog.  And, I am quick to
>> swing a floor arc around my dog, to arrive the tip on the floor between an
>> incoming fake service dog and my dog.  That's about all it takes,  No
>> hitting, no violence - just movement distraction and a physical object
>> quickly placed between the dogs as a separating deterrent with lateral
>> movement that seems to be an effective distraction.  It seems to be
>> disorienting to an aggressive dog to encounter an object suddenly appearing
>> from the side.  We keep moving forward, or my dog stops and sits while I
>> address the problem.  I'm vision impaired, not totally blind, so I don't
>> know how well this would work for some of you.  I can say at the least, this
>> poor dog behavior startles me, and we've been fortunate that none of us have
>> been hurt before.  When was the last time we dealt with this?  Let's think
>> back.actually.yesterday afternoon.
>> 
>> I am formal calling on all of us to put our collective foot down about the
>> lack of training for ESA's.  Who is the best, most potent place to begin
>> this process, who do we talk to?  This ethical and behavioral problem has
>> hurt enough of our real working dogs as a group of individuals, and will
>> only make life worse for us as people who have bona fide reasons to work
>> with them.  How can chip in here and name individuals in positions of power
>> to create a change, calling for initiating the necessity of ESA's to adhere
>> to the same code of conduct that we do?  Let's do something about this.
>> 
>> My best,
>> Peter
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sljohnson25%40comcast.net
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/nellie%40culodge.com
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/irishana%40gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 8
> Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 12:08:10 -0500
> From: "Jordan Gallacher" <jordangandbelto at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog
> 	Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
> Message-ID: <013501d3e238$26a2b640$73e822c0$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="utf-8"
> 
> Unfortunately, the media down where I live does not seem to care one bit about service animal issues.  I had problems at one point with loose animals, and even the media did not care about how big of a problem it was.
> Jordan
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Vivianna via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, May 2, 2018 10:49 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Vivianna <irishana at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
> 
> Hi All,
> It?s my opinion that, what seems to get the most attention these days is, videos.
> We should all get familiar with taking videos on our phones.  Then, be ready and willing to use said videos all over the place.  Post em on your facebook.  Email em all over the place.  Send em to the media.  You get the idea.
> The louder we are, the more folks will become educated about such things.  Hopefully!
> This goes for Uber and Lyft incidents as well.  Document, document document and spread far and wide.
> Telling us on this list is good but, that won?t get the problems solved.
> 
> Vivianna
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On May 2, 2018, at 9:39 AM, Cindy Ray via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> I have asked that this conversation stop right now. I think we can get 
>> past it. I've had my own comments on the issue, but let's please not 
>> make it a thread. We all have our moments of judgmental from time to 
>> time. Perhaps if we think through what we are about to say before we 
>> say it, this would be helpful.
>> 
>> Cindy Lou Ray, Moderator
>> cindyray at gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Janell via NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 2, 2018 9:35 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: nellie at culodge.com
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
>> 
>> Wow, for a site that professes to be a safe, non-judgmental venue to 
>> ask questions, share experiences and offer advice, more often than not 
>> get comments such as this which in my opinion are rude, and attempt to 
>> include all of us guide dog users to be melded into the same group 
>> with  a select few people's idea of how a guide dog team should be defined.
>> 
>> I personally do not use my cane when out with my dog but I certainly 
>> do not "throw stones" at those who do.  I do know of quite a few guide 
>> dog users who use the cane in conjunction with their dog.  Everyone is 
>> different and it is not necessary for any of us to explain why or why 
>> not we use a cane or anything else for that matter.
>> 
>> -Janell
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sandra 
>> Johnson via NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 2, 2018 9:00 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users 
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Sandra Johnson <SLJohnson25 at comcast.net>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
>> 
>> Hello:
>> 
>> Why would you need to use a cane if your dog is a well trained safe guide? 
>> In your case with some sight it seems that the cane would not be necessary. 
>> Those of us who are totally blind do not use a cane with our guide dogs. 
>> Didn't we get dogs so we can put the canes away?
>> 
>> I do agree that something must be done about all the untrained dogs 
>> out in the public, especially in airports.  As Jenine said the rules 
>> are there but not enforced.  So, as NAGDU is an organization of guide 
>> dog handlers, what can we do about this issue?
>> 
>> Sandra
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Peter Wolf via NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2018 2:32 AM
>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> Cc: Peter Wolf
>> Subject: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
>> 
>> Wow guys.  It was just a couple of hours after writing to you all 
>> about how important it has been to me for us in our family to hold a 
>> balance between impeccable training and performance with 'ambassadorship' as a working team.
>> 
>> It included some of what I consider somewhat intimate sharing about 
>> the bond and love side of being a team in our own personal style that 
>> meets what we feel to be authentic to us (my wife and i both).  And how well it works.
>> 
>> Now I've read the heads up messages from many of you about the recent 
>> disgusting TV show about buying ESA status for pets.  I am just incensed.
>> I'll bet many of you can share experiences like ours, of having been 
>> snapped, barked and lunged at in airports and other places, or worse.  
>> It now happens every time we fly, which is probably 8 times a year.  
>> It's not enough that our dogs ignore it.
>> 
>> If any of you remember, I've written that with spatial as well as 
>> sight issues, I often have my cane working, even with my dog.  And, I 
>> am quick to swing a floor arc around my dog, to arrive the tip on the 
>> floor between an incoming fake service dog and my dog.  That's about 
>> all it takes,  No hitting, no violence - just movement distraction and 
>> a physical object quickly placed between the dogs as a separating 
>> deterrent with lateral movement that seems to be an effective 
>> distraction.  It seems to be disorienting to an aggressive dog to 
>> encounter an object suddenly appearing from the side.  We keep moving 
>> forward, or my dog stops and sits while I address the problem.  I'm 
>> vision impaired, not totally blind, so I don't know how well this 
>> would work for some of you.  I can say at the least, this poor dog 
>> behavior startles me, and we've been fortunate that none of us have 
>> been hurt before.  When was the last time we dealt with this?  Let's think back.actually.yesterday afternoon.
>> 
>> I am formal calling on all of us to put our collective foot down about 
>> the lack of training for ESA's.  Who is the best, most potent place to 
>> begin this process, who do we talk to?  This ethical and behavioral 
>> problem has hurt enough of our real working dogs as a group of 
>> individuals, and will only make life worse for us as people who have 
>> bona fide reasons to work with them.  How can chip in here and name 
>> individuals in positions of power to create a change, calling for 
>> initiating the necessity of ESA's to adhere to the same code of conduct that we do?  Let's do something about this.
>> 
>> My best,
>> Peter
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sljohnson25%40comca
>> st.net
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/nellie%40culodge.co
>> m
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.co
>> m
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/irishana%40gmail.co
>> m
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jordangandbelto%40gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 9
> Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 12:09:41 -0500
> From: "Jordan Gallacher" <jordangandbelto at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog
> 	Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
> Message-ID: <014401d3e238$5c985750$15c905f0$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
> 
> Those comments were rude.  There are plenty of uses for a cane when using a
> dog, and I think we can all agree on what they are.
> Jordan
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Janell via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, May 2, 2018 9:35 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: nellie at culodge.com
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
> 
> Wow, for a site that professes to be a safe, non-judgmental venue to ask
> questions, share experiences and offer advice, more often than not get
> comments such as this which in my opinion are rude, and attempt to include
> all of us guide dog users to be melded into the same group with  a select
> few people's idea of how a guide dog team should be defined.  
> 
> I personally do not use my cane when out with my dog but I certainly do not
> "throw stones" at those who do.  I do know of quite a few guide dog users
> who use the cane in conjunction with their dog.  Everyone is different and
> it is not necessary for any of us to explain why or why not we use a cane or
> anything else for that matter.
> 
> -Janell 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sandra Johnson
> via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, May 2, 2018 9:00 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Sandra Johnson <SLJohnson25 at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
> 
> Hello:
> 
> Why would you need to use a cane if your dog is a well trained safe guide? 
> In your case with some sight it seems that the cane would not be necessary. 
> Those of us who are totally blind do not use a cane with our guide dogs. 
> Didn't we get dogs so we can put the canes away?
> 
> I do agree that something must be done about all the untrained dogs out in
> the public, especially in airports.  As Jenine said the rules are there but
> not enforced.  So, as NAGDU is an organization of guide dog handlers, what
> can we do about this issue?
> 
> Sandra
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Wolf via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2018 2:32 AM
> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> Cc: Peter Wolf
> Subject: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
> 
> Wow guys.  It was just a couple of hours after writing to you all about how
> important it has been to me for us in our family to hold a balance between
> impeccable training and performance with 'ambassadorship' as a working team.
> 
> It included some of what I consider somewhat intimate sharing about the bond
> and love side of being a team in our own personal style that meets what we
> feel to be authentic to us (my wife and i both).  And how well it works.
> 
> Now I've read the heads up messages from many of you about the recent
> disgusting TV show about buying ESA status for pets.  I am just incensed.
> I'll bet many of you can share experiences like ours, of having been
> snapped, barked and lunged at in airports and other places, or worse.  It
> now happens every time we fly, which is probably 8 times a year.  It's not
> enough that our dogs ignore it.
> 
> If any of you remember, I've written that with spatial as well as sight
> issues, I often have my cane working, even with my dog.  And, I am quick to
> swing a floor arc around my dog, to arrive the tip on the floor between an
> incoming fake service dog and my dog.  That's about all it takes,  No
> hitting, no violence - just movement distraction and a physical object
> quickly placed between the dogs as a separating deterrent with lateral
> movement that seems to be an effective distraction.  It seems to be
> disorienting to an aggressive dog to encounter an object suddenly appearing
> from the side.  We keep moving forward, or my dog stops and sits while I
> address the problem.  I'm vision impaired, not totally blind, so I don't
> know how well this would work for some of you.  I can say at the least, this
> poor dog behavior startles me, and we've been fortunate that none of us have
> been hurt before.  When was the last time we dealt with this?  Let's think
> back.actually.yesterday afternoon.
> 
> I am formal calling on all of us to put our collective foot down about the
> lack of training for ESA's.  Who is the best, most potent place to begin
> this process, who do we talk to?  This ethical and behavioral problem has
> hurt enough of our real working dogs as a group of individuals, and will
> only make life worse for us as people who have bona fide reasons to work
> with them.  How can chip in here and name individuals in positions of power
> to create a change, calling for initiating the necessity of ESA's to adhere
> to the same code of conduct that we do?  Let's do something about this.
> 
> My best,
> Peter
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sljohnson25%40comcast.net
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/nellie%40culodge.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jordangandbelto%40gmail.c
> om
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 10
> Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 14:40:24 -0400
> From: "Sandra Johnson" <SLJohnson25 at comcast.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> 	<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
> Message-ID: <1456064605E74BFEBF901DB1DC2E5096 at JOHNSON>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8";
> 	reply-type=original
> 
> Buddy:
> 
> I only asked because in my 43 years of using guide dogs I have never heard 
> of using a cane while working my dog.  None of the trainers I have ever 
> worked with have ever suggested using both at the same time.  My concern was 
> more about how the public would perceive this.  We want them to respect our 
> use of a guide dogs.  If a person needs to use both a cane and guide dog 
> then the public might feel then why do those blind people need those dogs 
> anyway?  Whether we like it or not, the public is looking and forming their 
> opinions on what they see us doing.  I was only asking why someone would 
> need to use both a guide dog and a long white cane at the same time.  It was 
> a concept that I had never encountered so I asked why.  No harm was meant by 
> my innocent question and if someone took it wrong, then I am sorry.
> 
> Sandra
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Buddy Brannan via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2018 10:15 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Buddy Brannan
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
> 
> I think Peter explained as much as he needs to why he sometimes carries/uses 
> a cane. Moreover, there are occasions where many of us do use a cane in 
> conjunction with a dog, or while heeling a dog, and perhaps not exactly in 
> the same way that a full-time cane user does. None of which require an 
> explanation. While it may not have been intentional, your tone comes off, at 
> least to me, as unnecessarily confrontational. Of course, your feelings 
> about people with low vision having guide dogs has been made pretty clear in 
> the past, so this may well be coloring my perception.
> 
> ?Buddy
> 
>> On May 2, 2018, at 9:59 AM, Sandra Johnson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hello:
>> 
>> Why would you need to use a cane if your dog is a well trained safe guide? 
>> In your case with some sight it seems that the cane would not be 
>> necessary. Those of us who are totally blind do not use a cane with our 
>> guide dogs. Didn't we get dogs so we can put the canes away?
>> 
>> I do agree that something must be done about all the untrained dogs out in 
>> the public, especially in airports.  As Jenine said the rules are there 
>> but not enforced.  So, as NAGDU is an organization of guide dog handlers, 
>> what can we do about this issue?
>> 
>> Sandra
>> 
>> -----Original Message----- From: Peter Wolf via NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2018 2:32 AM
>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> Cc: Peter Wolf
>> Subject: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
>> 
>> Wow guys.  It was just a couple of hours after writing to you all about 
>> how important it has been to me for us in our family to hold a balance 
>> between impeccable training and performance with ?ambassadorship? as a 
>> working team. It included some of what I consider somewhat intimate 
>> sharing about the bond and love side of being a team in our own personal 
>> style that meets what we feel to be authentic to us (my wife and i both). 
>> And how well it works.
>> 
>> Now I?ve read the heads up messages from many of you about the recent 
>> disgusting TV show about buying ESA status for pets.  I am just incensed. 
>> I?ll bet many of you can share experiences like ours, of having been 
>> snapped, barked and lunged at in airports and other places, or worse.  It 
>> now happens every time we fly, which is probably 8 times a year.  It?s not 
>> enough that our dogs ignore it.
>> 
>> If any of you remember, I?ve written that with spatial as well as sight 
>> issues, I often have my cane working, even with my dog.  And, I am quick 
>> to swing a floor arc around my dog, to arrive the tip on the floor between 
>> an incoming fake service dog and my dog.  That?s about all it takes,  No 
>> hitting, no violence - just movement distraction and a physical object 
>> quickly placed between the dogs as a separating deterrent with lateral 
>> movement that seems to be an effective distraction.  It seems to be 
>> disorienting to an aggressive dog to encounter an object suddenly 
>> appearing from the side.  We keep moving forward, or my dog stops and sits 
>> while I address the problem.  I?m vision impaired, not totally blind, so I 
>> don?t know how well this would work for some of you.  I can say at the 
>> least, this poor dog behavior startles me, and we've been fortunate that 
>> none of us have been hurt before.  When was the last time we dealt with 
>> this?  Let?s think back?actually?yesterday afternoon.
>> 
>> I am formal calling on all of us to put our collective foot down about the 
>> lack of training for ESA?s.  Who is the best, most potent place to begin 
>> this process, who do we talk to?  This ethical and behavioral problem has 
>> hurt enough of our real working dogs as a group of individuals, and will 
>> only make life worse for us as people who have bona fide reasons to work 
>> with them.  How can chip in here and name individuals in positions of 
>> power to create a change, calling for initiating the necessity of ESA?s to 
>> adhere to the same code of conduct that we do?  Let?s do something about 
>> this.
>> 
>> My best,
>> Peter
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sljohnson25%40comcast.net
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/buddy%40brannan.name
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sljohnson25%40comcast.net 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 11
> Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 14:51:50 -0400
> From: "Sandra Johnson" <SLJohnson25 at comcast.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> 	<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
> Message-ID: <478A3C5AD52F42F2A461E384FB54A8E9 at JOHNSON>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> 	reply-type=original
> 
> Hello Janell:
> 
> That is why I asked the question.  I had never heard of using a cane and 
> guide dog at the same time.  In movies and printed stories about blind 
> people they are often using canes or guide dogs incorrectly.  I was thinking 
> that using both would confuse the general public by making them think the 
> dogs really are not able to do all the work without the blind handler using 
> their cane too.  When I got my first dog the trainer actually told us that 
> we should never use the cane at the same time because it would confuse the 
> dog.  If this has changed I have never run into a trainer who thought that 
> way or used it with their students.  I too thought this list was for asking 
> questions about things we did not know or had never experienced before while 
> working our dogs.  Now this is the last I will say on this subject unless 
> someone wants to give informative information on how and why using a guide 
> dog and cane can be helpful and not detramental to the work.
> 
> 
> Sandra
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Janell via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2018 10:35 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: nellie at culodge.com
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
> 
> Wow, for a site that professes to be a safe, non-judgmental venue to ask
> questions, share experiences and offer advice, more often than not get
> comments such as this which in my opinion are rude, and attempt to include
> all of us guide dog users to be melded into the same group with  a select
> few people's idea of how a guide dog team should be defined.
> 
> I personally do not use my cane when out with my dog but I certainly do not
> "throw stones" at those who do.  I do know of quite a few guide dog users
> who use the cane in conjunction with their dog.  Everyone is different and
> it is not necessary for any of us to explain why or why not we use a cane or
> anything else for that matter.
> 
> -Janell
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sandra Johnson
> via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, May 2, 2018 9:00 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Sandra Johnson <SLJohnson25 at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
> 
> Hello:
> 
> Why would you need to use a cane if your dog is a well trained safe guide?
> In your case with some sight it seems that the cane would not be necessary.
> Those of us who are totally blind do not use a cane with our guide dogs.
> Didn't we get dogs so we can put the canes away?
> 
> I do agree that something must be done about all the untrained dogs out in
> the public, especially in airports.  As Jenine said the rules are there but
> not enforced.  So, as NAGDU is an organization of guide dog handlers, what
> can we do about this issue?
> 
> Sandra
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Wolf via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2018 2:32 AM
> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> Cc: Peter Wolf
> Subject: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
> 
> Wow guys.  It was just a couple of hours after writing to you all about how
> important it has been to me for us in our family to hold a balance between
> impeccable training and performance with 'ambassadorship' as a working team.
> 
> It included some of what I consider somewhat intimate sharing about the bond
> and love side of being a team in our own personal style that meets what we
> feel to be authentic to us (my wife and i both).  And how well it works.
> 
> Now I've read the heads up messages from many of you about the recent
> disgusting TV show about buying ESA status for pets.  I am just incensed.
> I'll bet many of you can share experiences like ours, of having been
> snapped, barked and lunged at in airports and other places, or worse.  It
> now happens every time we fly, which is probably 8 times a year.  It's not
> enough that our dogs ignore it.
> 
> If any of you remember, I've written that with spatial as well as sight
> issues, I often have my cane working, even with my dog.  And, I am quick to
> swing a floor arc around my dog, to arrive the tip on the floor between an
> incoming fake service dog and my dog.  That's about all it takes,  No
> hitting, no violence - just movement distraction and a physical object
> quickly placed between the dogs as a separating deterrent with lateral
> movement that seems to be an effective distraction.  It seems to be
> disorienting to an aggressive dog to encounter an object suddenly appearing
> from the side.  We keep moving forward, or my dog stops and sits while I
> address the problem.  I'm vision impaired, not totally blind, so I don't
> know how well this would work for some of you.  I can say at the least, this
> poor dog behavior startles me, and we've been fortunate that none of us have
> been hurt before.  When was the last time we dealt with this?  Let's think
> back.actually.yesterday afternoon.
> 
> I am formal calling on all of us to put our collective foot down about the
> lack of training for ESA's.  Who is the best, most potent place to begin
> this process, who do we talk to?  This ethical and behavioral problem has
> hurt enough of our real working dogs as a group of individuals, and will
> only make life worse for us as people who have bona fide reasons to work
> with them.  How can chip in here and name individuals in positions of power
> to create a change, calling for initiating the necessity of ESA's to adhere
> to the same code of conduct that we do?  Let's do something about this.
> 
> My best,
> Peter
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sljohnson25%40comcast.net
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/nellie%40culodge.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sljohnson25%40comcast.net 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 12
> Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 15:33:32 -0400
> From: "Sherri Brun" <flmom2006 at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog
> 	Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
> Message-ID: <033401d3e24c$75528310$5ff78930$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="utf-8"
> 
> My school did say that using a cane is okay when you feel it necessary.  There are several situations where this might be an advantage.  Sherri
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sandra Johnson via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2018 2:40 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Sandra Johnson <SLJohnson25 at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
> 
> Buddy:
> 
> I only asked because in my 43 years of using guide dogs I have never heard 
> of using a cane while working my dog.  None of the trainers I have ever 
> worked with have ever suggested using both at the same time.  My concern was 
> more about how the public would perceive this.  We want them to respect our 
> use of a guide dogs.  If a person needs to use both a cane and guide dog 
> then the public might feel then why do those blind people need those dogs 
> anyway?  Whether we like it or not, the public is looking and forming their 
> opinions on what they see us doing.  I was only asking why someone would 
> need to use both a guide dog and a long white cane at the same time.  It was 
> a concept that I had never encountered so I asked why.  No harm was meant by 
> my innocent question and if someone took it wrong, then I am sorry.
> 
> Sandra
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Buddy Brannan via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2018 10:15 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Buddy Brannan
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
> 
> I think Peter explained as much as he needs to why he sometimes carries/uses 
> a cane. Moreover, there are occasions where many of us do use a cane in 
> conjunction with a dog, or while heeling a dog, and perhaps not exactly in 
> the same way that a full-time cane user does. None of which require an 
> explanation. While it may not have been intentional, your tone comes off, at 
> least to me, as unnecessarily confrontational. Of course, your feelings 
> about people with low vision having guide dogs has been made pretty clear in 
> the past, so this may well be coloring my perception.
> 
> ?Buddy
> 
>> On May 2, 2018, at 9:59 AM, Sandra Johnson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hello:
>> 
>> Why would you need to use a cane if your dog is a well trained safe guide? 
>> In your case with some sight it seems that the cane would not be 
>> necessary. Those of us who are totally blind do not use a cane with our 
>> guide dogs. Didn't we get dogs so we can put the canes away?
>> 
>> I do agree that something must be done about all the untrained dogs out in 
>> the public, especially in airports.  As Jenine said the rules are there 
>> but not enforced.  So, as NAGDU is an organization of guide dog handlers, 
>> what can we do about this issue?
>> 
>> Sandra
>> 
>> -----Original Message----- From: Peter Wolf via NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2018 2:32 AM
>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> Cc: Peter Wolf
>> Subject: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
>> 
>> Wow guys.  It was just a couple of hours after writing to you all about 
>> how important it has been to me for us in our family to hold a balance 
>> between impeccable training and performance with ?ambassadorship? as a 
>> working team. It included some of what I consider somewhat intimate 
>> sharing about the bond and love side of being a team in our own personal 
>> style that meets what we feel to be authentic to us (my wife and i both). 
>> And how well it works.
>> 
>> Now I?ve read the heads up messages from many of you about the recent 
>> disgusting TV show about buying ESA status for pets.  I am just incensed. 
>> I?ll bet many of you can share experiences like ours, of having been 
>> snapped, barked and lunged at in airports and other places, or worse.  It 
>> now happens every time we fly, which is probably 8 times a year.  It?s not 
>> enough that our dogs ignore it.
>> 
>> If any of you remember, I?ve written that with spatial as well as sight 
>> issues, I often have my cane working, even with my dog.  And, I am quick 
>> to swing a floor arc around my dog, to arrive the tip on the floor between 
>> an incoming fake service dog and my dog.  That?s about all it takes,  No 
>> hitting, no violence - just movement distraction and a physical object 
>> quickly placed between the dogs as a separating deterrent with lateral 
>> movement that seems to be an effective distraction.  It seems to be 
>> disorienting to an aggressive dog to encounter an object suddenly 
>> appearing from the side.  We keep moving forward, or my dog stops and sits 
>> while I address the problem.  I?m vision impaired, not totally blind, so I 
>> don?t know how well this would work for some of you.  I can say at the 
>> least, this poor dog behavior startles me, and we've been fortunate that 
>> none of us have been hurt before.  When was the last time we dealt with 
>> this?  Let?s think back?actually?yesterday afternoon.
>> 
>> I am formal calling on all of us to put our collective foot down about the 
>> lack of training for ESA?s.  Who is the best, most potent place to begin 
>> this process, who do we talk to?  This ethical and behavioral problem has 
>> hurt enough of our real working dogs as a group of individuals, and will 
>> only make life worse for us as people who have bona fide reasons to work 
>> with them.  How can chip in here and name individuals in positions of 
>> power to create a change, calling for initiating the necessity of ESA?s to 
>> adhere to the same code of conduct that we do?  Let?s do something about 
>> this.
>> 
>> My best,
>> Peter
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sljohnson25%40comcast.net
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/buddy%40brannan.name
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sljohnson25%40comcast.net 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/flmom2006%40gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 13
> Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 14:51:33 -0500
> From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog
> 	Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
> Message-ID: <01fa01d3e24e$f9517cf0$ebf476d0$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="utf-8"
> 
> A lot of people use a cane as a tool when they are using their dogs. As for how the public perceives it, I know we want a good perception, but there are oh so many ways in which that can be achieved. If it is not, this is the public's problem in my opinion. We have to have our safety first. I have asked that this topic end. If you have more--if any of you do--then send it off list to the person you want to get your message. Already none of you has paid heed to my request that the topic end. Please do so now.
> Cindy Lou Ray, Modrator
> cindyray at gmail.com
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sandra Johnson via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, May 2, 2018 1:40 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Sandra Johnson <SLJohnson25 at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
> 
> Buddy:
> 
> I only asked because in my 43 years of using guide dogs I have never heard of using a cane while working my dog.  None of the trainers I have ever worked with have ever suggested using both at the same time.  My concern was more about how the public would perceive this.  We want them to respect our use of a guide dogs.  If a person needs to use both a cane and guide dog then the public might feel then why do those blind people need those dogs anyway?  Whether we like it or not, the public is looking and forming their opinions on what they see us doing.  I was only asking why someone would need to use both a guide dog and a long white cane at the same time.  It was a concept that I had never encountered so I asked why.  No harm was meant by my innocent question and if someone took it wrong, then I am sorry.
> 
> Sandra
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Buddy Brannan via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2018 10:15 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Buddy Brannan
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
> 
> I think Peter explained as much as he needs to why he sometimes carries/uses a cane. Moreover, there are occasions where many of us do use a cane in conjunction with a dog, or while heeling a dog, and perhaps not exactly in the same way that a full-time cane user does. None of which require an explanation. While it may not have been intentional, your tone comes off, at least to me, as unnecessarily confrontational. Of course, your feelings about people with low vision having guide dogs has been made pretty clear in the past, so this may well be coloring my perception.
> 
> ?Buddy
> 
>> On May 2, 2018, at 9:59 AM, Sandra Johnson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hello:
>> 
>> Why would you need to use a cane if your dog is a well trained safe guide? 
>> In your case with some sight it seems that the cane would not be 
>> necessary. Those of us who are totally blind do not use a cane with our 
>> guide dogs. Didn't we get dogs so we can put the canes away?
>> 
>> I do agree that something must be done about all the untrained dogs out in 
>> the public, especially in airports.  As Jenine said the rules are there 
>> but not enforced.  So, as NAGDU is an organization of guide dog handlers, 
>> what can we do about this issue?
>> 
>> Sandra
>> 
>> -----Original Message----- From: Peter Wolf via NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2018 2:32 AM
>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> Cc: Peter Wolf
>> Subject: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
>> 
>> Wow guys.  It was just a couple of hours after writing to you all about 
>> how important it has been to me for us in our family to hold a balance 
>> between impeccable training and performance with ?ambassadorship? as a 
>> working team. It included some of what I consider somewhat intimate 
>> sharing about the bond and love side of being a team in our own personal 
>> style that meets what we feel to be authentic to us (my wife and i both). 
>> And how well it works.
>> 
>> Now I?ve read the heads up messages from many of you about the recent 
>> disgusting TV show about buying ESA status for pets.  I am just incensed. 
>> I?ll bet many of you can share experiences like ours, of having been 
>> snapped, barked and lunged at in airports and other places, or worse.  It 
>> now happens every time we fly, which is probably 8 times a year.  It?s not 
>> enough that our dogs ignore it.
>> 
>> If any of you remember, I?ve written that with spatial as well as sight 
>> issues, I often have my cane working, even with my dog.  And, I am quick 
>> to swing a floor arc around my dog, to arrive the tip on the floor between 
>> an incoming fake service dog and my dog.  That?s about all it takes,  No 
>> hitting, no violence - just movement distraction and a physical object 
>> quickly placed between the dogs as a separating deterrent with lateral 
>> movement that seems to be an effective distraction.  It seems to be 
>> disorienting to an aggressive dog to encounter an object suddenly 
>> appearing from the side.  We keep moving forward, or my dog stops and sits 
>> while I address the problem.  I?m vision impaired, not totally blind, so I 
>> don?t know how well this would work for some of you.  I can say at the 
>> least, this poor dog behavior startles me, and we've been fortunate that 
>> none of us have been hurt before.  When was the last time we dealt with 
>> this?  Let?s think back?actually?yesterday afternoon.
>> 
>> I am formal calling on all of us to put our collective foot down about the 
>> lack of training for ESA?s.  Who is the best, most potent place to begin 
>> this process, who do we talk to?  This ethical and behavioral problem has 
>> hurt enough of our real working dogs as a group of individuals, and will 
>> only make life worse for us as people who have bona fide reasons to work 
>> with them.  How can chip in here and name individuals in positions of 
>> power to create a change, calling for initiating the necessity of ESA?s to 
>> adhere to the same code of conduct that we do?  Let?s do something about 
>> this.
>> 
>> My best,
>> Peter
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sljohnson25%40comcast.net
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/buddy%40brannan.name
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
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> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 14
> Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 04:55:50 -0400
> From: "NAGDU President" <blind411 at verizon.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog
> 	Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Special Report: Pets pose as service animals
> Message-ID: <026801d3e2bc$897d84f0$9c788ed0$@verizon.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
> 
> Dear All,
> 
> 	This whole, "I can't do anything without my guide dog" assertion,
> especially when it comes from a guide dog training program irritates me!We
> hear this so much from some training programs that even proudly say how
> their dogs give the blind person dignity. How undignified! It implies that
> those who do not use a guide dog do not have dignity and are virtually
> helpless which is what suzie Wilburn purportedly says in this article. Then,
> to top it off, let's issue identification cards to service dog users so we
> can be stopped everywhere we go to produce proof we have the right to live
> in the world! 
> 
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion 
> 
> Marion Gwizdala, President
> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU)
> National Federation of the Blind
> (813) 626-2789
> President at NAGDU.ORG
> Visit our website
> Follow us on Twitter
> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind  people
> and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what holds
> you back.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ginger Kutsch via
> NAGDU
> Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2018 8:45 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Ginger Kutsch
> Subject: [NAGDU] Special Report: Pets pose as service animals
> 
> Special Report: Pets pose as service animals
> 
> By Jess Doudrick 
> 
> May 1, 2018
> 
> Source:
> http://www.mysuncoast.com/news/watch-pets-pose-as-service-animals/article_ad
> 10c870-4804-11e8-af13-2f2f6cec30ad.html
> 
> Suzy Wilburn from Southeastern Guide Dogs poses with her service dog Carson.
> 
> 
> 
> SARASOTA, FL (WWSB) - Family pets might be walking through Suncoast malls
> and restaurants with their owners' posing them as service animals. You may
> not even know it until that pet causes a scene or goes after other animal.
> 
> 
> 
> It's a struggle that real service animals and their handlers are facing more
> often.
> 
> 
> 
> Suzy Wilburn suffers from a rare vision disease called Stargardt's. Instead
> of seeing what you or I would, she just sees sparkles. The diagnosis, nine
> years ago, devastated her.
> 
> 
> 
> She couldn't go anywhere without her husband until she got her guide dog
> Carson.
> 
> 
> 
> "When I put the harness on my dog, I took it off of my husband," Wilburn
> said.
> 
> 
> 
> Wilburn described Carson as her security blanket. He has been specially
> trained to help Wilburn do things like cross a busy street and prevent her
> from running into anything dangerous.
> 
> 
> 
> "With Carson I get to do things that I never did when I was fully sighted,"
> she says. "He makes me a better person."
> 
> 
> 
> But it's not always smooth sailing for Carson and Wilburn. On the first day
> after Carson graduated from Southeastern Guide Dogs, the pair went to the
> mall.
> 
> 
> 
> "As we are walking through, somebody's dog jumped out of the purse and
> barked aggressively at Carson," Wilburn described. "I immediately turned
> around and said, 'What kind of service dog is that?!'"
> 
> 
> 
> She says scenarios like that play out all of the time for her and Carson.
> 
> 
> 
> According to the National Alliance of Therapy Dogs, Wilburn is not alone.
> 
> 
> 
> "People are recognizing the value of their pets and wanting to spend more
> time with their pets than ever before, which is leading people to take their
> pets wherever they go," Pat Coglianese, Alliance of Therapy Dogs president
> Pat Cogilanese says.
> 
> 
> 
> In just five minutes anyone can go online and register their pet as a
> service animal or emotional support animal. You don't need any proof!You
> just pay as little as $20 and get a certificate and ID card for your pet.
> You can also easily buy a service vest online. That can make it hard for
> people to be able to tell what's truly a service animal and what's a fake.
> 
> 
> 
> "There are some disabilities that are obvious that that person needs a
> service dog, but there are other disabilities that are very helpful, but you
> can't really tell from looking at the person that there's a disability,"
> Cogilanese says.
> 
> 
> 
> The ADA permits businesses to ask only two questions of people with pets in
> public places: Is the animal required because of a disability and what work
> or tasks has the animal been trained to perform?
> 
> 
> 
> If the owner can't answer those questions them businesses do not have to
> allow them access.
> 
> 
> 
> "If that person can answer the questions, there's not much they can do
> unless the animal is not well behaved or creates a problem in the
> environment," Cogilanese says, "If there's a problem with the animal in the
> business, they can ask them to leave."
> 
> 
> 
> A business owner cannot ask what the person's disability is or ask the dog
> to demonstrate the skills.
> 
> 
> 
> So what's the difference between service animals, therapy animals and
> emotional support animals?
> 
> 
> 
> Service animals are dogs that are trained to do work for the benefit of
> someone with a disability. That disability can be physical, sensory,
> psychiatric, intellectual or mental. Service animals are allowed in public
> places.
> 
> 
> 
> Emotional support animals can be any species of animal. They're recommended
> by a qualified physician, psychiatrist or other mental health professional.
> They do not go through training and do not qualify as service animals. They
> are not allowed in public places. However, under the Fair Housing Act, these
> animals are permitted in reasonable housing for people with disabilities.
> 
> 
> 
> Therapy animals have some kind of goal directed intervention to help with a
> treatment process. They are not allowed in public places.
> 
> 
> 
> Wilburn now works at Southeastern Guide Dogs to help others.
> 
> 
> 
> She feels that government issued ID cards for service animals could solve
> the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> "You have to have a drivers license. You have to have a license to be an RN.
> Why shouldn't you have a license? It would just make my life easier," she
> says. "Others think it's a huge violation of their rights, which it is."
> 
> 
> 
> It is a second degree misdemeanor to misrepresent a service animal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizon.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 15
> Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 07:17:08 -0400
> From: "Star Gazer" <pickrellrebecca at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog
> 	Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
> Message-ID: <091301d3e2d0$46b88890$d42999b0$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
> 
> 	Sandra, 
> The thinking on using a dog and a cane at the same time seems to be changing
> in that now people are told they can do this. It didn't always used to be
> this way. 
> So you are correct, the thinking as with all types of things is changing. 
> As for the public, who cares. People think what they want. 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sandra Johnson via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, May 2, 2018 2:52 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Sandra Johnson <SLJohnson25 at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
> 
> Hello Janell:
> 
> That is why I asked the question.  I had never heard of using a cane and
> guide dog at the same time.  In movies and printed stories about blind
> people they are often using canes or guide dogs incorrectly.  I was thinking
> that using both would confuse the general public by making them think the
> dogs really are not able to do all the work without the blind handler using
> their cane too.  When I got my first dog the trainer actually told us that
> we should never use the cane at the same time because it would confuse the
> dog.  If this has changed I have never run into a trainer who thought that
> way or used it with their students.  I too thought this list was for asking
> questions about things we did not know or had never experienced before while
> working our dogs.  Now this is the last I will say on this subject unless
> someone wants to give informative information on how and why using a guide
> dog and cane can be helpful and not detramental to the work.
> 
> 
> Sandra
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Janell via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2018 10:35 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: nellie at culodge.com
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
> 
> Wow, for a site that professes to be a safe, non-judgmental venue to ask
> questions, share experiences and offer advice, more often than not get
> comments such as this which in my opinion are rude, and attempt to include
> all of us guide dog users to be melded into the same group with  a select
> few people's idea of how a guide dog team should be defined.
> 
> I personally do not use my cane when out with my dog but I certainly do not
> "throw stones" at those who do.  I do know of quite a few guide dog users
> who use the cane in conjunction with their dog.  Everyone is different and
> it is not necessary for any of us to explain why or why not we use a cane or
> anything else for that matter.
> 
> -Janell
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sandra Johnson
> via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, May 2, 2018 9:00 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Sandra Johnson <SLJohnson25 at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
> 
> Hello:
> 
> Why would you need to use a cane if your dog is a well trained safe guide?
> In your case with some sight it seems that the cane would not be necessary.
> Those of us who are totally blind do not use a cane with our guide dogs.
> Didn't we get dogs so we can put the canes away?
> 
> I do agree that something must be done about all the untrained dogs out in
> the public, especially in airports.  As Jenine said the rules are there but
> not enforced.  So, as NAGDU is an organization of guide dog handlers, what
> can we do about this issue?
> 
> Sandra
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Wolf via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2018 2:32 AM
> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> Cc: Peter Wolf
> Subject: [NAGDU] Travel and ESA's
> 
> Wow guys.  It was just a couple of hours after writing to you all about how
> important it has been to me for us in our family to hold a balance between
> impeccable training and performance with 'ambassadorship' as a working team.
> 
> It included some of what I consider somewhat intimate sharing about the bond
> and love side of being a team in our own personal style that meets what we
> feel to be authentic to us (my wife and i both).  And how well it works.
> 
> Now I've read the heads up messages from many of you about the recent
> disgusting TV show about buying ESA status for pets.  I am just incensed.
> I'll bet many of you can share experiences like ours, of having been
> snapped, barked and lunged at in airports and other places, or worse.  It
> now happens every time we fly, which is probably 8 times a year.  It's not
> enough that our dogs ignore it.
> 
> If any of you remember, I've written that with spatial as well as sight
> issues, I often have my cane working, even with my dog.  And, I am quick to
> swing a floor arc around my dog, to arrive the tip on the floor between an
> incoming fake service dog and my dog.  That's about all it takes,  No
> hitting, no violence - just movement distraction and a physical object
> quickly placed between the dogs as a separating deterrent with lateral
> movement that seems to be an effective distraction.  It seems to be
> disorienting to an aggressive dog to encounter an object suddenly appearing
> from the side.  We keep moving forward, or my dog stops and sits while I
> address the problem.  I'm vision impaired, not totally blind, so I don't
> know how well this would work for some of you.  I can say at the least, this
> poor dog behavior startles me, and we've been fortunate that none of us have
> been hurt before.  When was the last time we dealt with this?  Let's think
> back.actually.yesterday afternoon.
> 
> I am formal calling on all of us to put our collective foot down about the
> lack of training for ESA's.  Who is the best, most potent place to begin
> this process, who do we talk to?  This ethical and behavioral problem has
> hurt enough of our real working dogs as a group of individuals, and will
> only make life worse for us as people who have bona fide reasons to work
> with them.  How can chip in here and name individuals in positions of power
> to create a change, calling for initiating the necessity of ESA's to adhere
> to the same code of conduct that we do?  Let's do something about this.
> 
> My best,
> Peter
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sljohnson25%40comcast.net
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/nellie%40culodge.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sljohnson25%40comcast.net
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/pickrellrebecca%40gmail.c
> om
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Subject: Digest Footer
> 
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
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> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> End of NAGDU Digest, Vol 158, Issue 3
> *************************************





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