[NAGDU] leash guiding

Bryan Gearry bgearry at alaskafrontier.net
Tue Jun 11 05:08:21 UTC 2024 

Danielle, you nailed it perfectly. Your description is right on! 
Thanks, Bryan

On 6/10/2024 5:36 AM, Danielle Sykora via NAGDU wrote:
> Leash guiding involves the handler holding the leash close to the dog's
> collar, standing just behind the dog's shoulders. The dog is expected to
> guide the same way it would in harness--stopping for obstacles, ignoring
> distractions, etc. The handler uses all the same cues and footwork as if
> the dog were guiding in harness. It is meant to be used for short distances
> in familiar environments. Some examples involves taking the dog out to
> relieve to an area outside your dorm/apartment building, going from a house
> to a car, or going from your office to the bathroom just down the hallway.
> It should not be used for long distances, when crossing streets, or in
> areas that are very complicated.
>
> Many dogs will naturally perform some guide tasks on leash; however, what
> differentiates true leash guiding is that 1. the way the leash is held and
> the handler's position makes it feasible to follow the dog appropriately
> and 2. the dog is held to the same standard as when it is in harness. So
> for example, a dog can not effectively guide at the end of a four foot
> leash. In addition, it's important that handler's don't take the attitude
> of "oh the dog is only leash guiding so it's OK they didn't stop for this
> obstacle," because this will cause leash guiding to not be reliable.
>
> GDF is the only program that formally trains dogs and handlers to use leash
> guiding, so it should not be expected that dogs from other programs are
> familiar with this concept without being introduced to it.
>
> Danielle
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 2:17 PM Al Sten-Clanton via NAGDU<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>
>> How does leash guid work?  I'm pretty sure I was never trained with
>> that?  I think my dog does it sometimes anyway, but I'm not sure, since
>> I don't know how it's supposed to work.
>>
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>>
>> Al
>>
>>
>> On 6/7/24 11:15, Bryan Gearry via NAGDU wrote:
>>> Danielle, I agree with you about leash guiding. Am on my third dog
>>> from GDF and our class brought up the same issue. The trainers worked
>>> with us on leash guide. I find it a great tool. They were very
>>> receptive to teaching us. I don't know about the other schools which
>>> I'm sure are very good as well, but GDF has been very accommodating to
>>> my lifestyle and tailor fit the training to reflect this. Bryan
>>>
>>> On 6/7/2024 6:34 AM, Danielle Sykora via NAGDU wrote:
>>>> I have had two dogs from the guide Dog Foundation, and I have
>>>> actually been pretty impressed that they have made some obvious
>>>> changes due to graduate feedback. A couple examples. GDF teaches
>>>> their dogs to leash guide in a very specific way in certain
>>>> situations. At one point, they stopped training dogs to leash guide.
>>>> Several graduates expressed our concerns as we found leash guiding to
>>>> be incredibly useful. Several of us were given the opportunity to
>>>> talk to the Director of training at the time, and I think this
>>>> resulted in a better understanding of the benefits and potential
>>>> downfalls of leash guiding.  Shortly after, GDF started training
>>>> leash guiding again with some changes to make it more safe and
>>>> effective. In addition, I had expressed some interest in the way dogs
>>>> were taught to handle stairs during one of my interviews in my second
>>>> class. It led to a productive conversation with the guide dog program
>>>> manager, and they actually started implementing one of the potential
>>>> methods we discussed during that conversation a few months later.
>>>> Danielle
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>> On Jun 7, 2024, at 8:18 AM, Al Sten-Clanton via
>>>>> NAGDU<nagdu at nfbnet.org>   wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Having never had contact with any puppy raiser of one of my five
>>>>> dogs, I'm curious why some see this as quite important. I don't mean
>>>>> that it wouldn't be nice and sometimes useful: there have been a few
>>>>> times when I wanted to ask some questions about my current dog and
>>>>> my third one.  That said, if my school can help me with any problems
>>>>> I have, as it has from time to time, I doubt I need that contact.
>>>>> Also, given how much folks can track other folks these days, I
>>>>> wouldn't want the puppy raiser to claim some privilege to tell me
>>>>> how to deal with my dog.  Even connections that begin with mutual
>>>>> cordiality can go wrong, and I wouldn't want somebody who is mostly
>>>>> a stranger to think he or she or they could take a hand in my care
>>>>> and work with the dog.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mind, I'm not closed to the idea.  Had that sort of thing been The
>>>>> Seeing Eye's practice when I first went there in 1979, I'm pretty
>>>>> sure I would have thought it was fine, unless a problem came up.
>>>>> Sheldon's raiser wrote up a good and sometimes amusing commentary;
>>>>> it helped some, though I'd have been glad to know more.  But not
>>>>> very far along, I think, what the puppy raiser could tell me would
>>>>> ge less and less helpful as I learned first-hand (or is it
>>>>> first-paw) about my dog, and the school will almost certainly be my
>>>>> best source of help.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I also note that I've heard only fragments of Seeing Eye's notions
>>>>> about contact with puppy raisers.  I'm therefore interested not only
>>>>> in alternative views but, if anybody can tell me, a better
>>>>> understanding of Seeing Eye's.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Best!
>>>>>
>>>>> Al
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 6/6/24 23:56, Sherry Gomes via NAGDU wrote:
>>>>>> I went as far as submitting an application to TSE when GDB denied
>>>>>> me after over 40 years, because I refused to continue to work with
>>>>>> an unsafe dog after trying for five years. I'd applied to TSE when
>>>>>> I was in high school, applied to both TES and GDB, which were the
>>>>>> only schools I'd hear of in the 70s. I told both schools about my
>>>>>> juvenile arthritis and my fused knee, range of motion and chronic
>>>>>> pain. GDB said we can get you a dog, TES said I couldn't possibly
>>>>>> work a guide dog. But by the time I retired my last GDB dog in
>>>>>> 2019, I knew TSE did not have that policy anymore, and I came very
>>>>>> close to picking them, because I knew what a fantastic reputation
>>>>>> thy have and I wanted the best possible dog. In the end, I didn't
>>>>>> follow through, because of the puppy raiser issue. I'm personal
>>>>>> friends with a lot of puppy raisers, not necessarily any that
>>>>>> raised my dogs, and I could never attend a guide dog training org
>>>>>> that wouldn't let me and the raiser choose to be in touch. I got a
>>>>>> wonder wonderful perfect match from guiding eyes, but there's a
>>>>>> part of me that will always wish I could have gotten a seeing eye
>>>>>> dog. I love hearing about the training from all of you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sherry
>>>>>> Sherry.gomes at outlook.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: NAGDU<nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>   On Behalf Of Al Sten-Clanton
>>>>>> via NAGDU
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2024 7:32 PM
>>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>> Users'<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Cc:albert.e.sten_clanton at verizon.net
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Graduate feedback
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know in general how well Seeing Eye listens to its
>>>>>> graduates.  I've felt free to tell the folks what I think the few
>>>>>> times I thought I should, but of course I can't tell whether
>>>>>> anything I've said had an incremental affect on changes.  Also, to
>>>>>> listen respectfully is of course not necessarily to agree, and I
>>>>>> consider that the place may be more right than I am on a given
>>>>>> topic, but I have had a couple of good conversations with
>>>>>> instructors and a couple of others with senior staff.  I also don't
>>>>>> know how many graduates share my views, especially as I seem to be
>>>>>> somewhat quirky in my thinking on a variety of subjects, including,
>>>>>> to a small degree, on guide dog work and school operation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Al
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: NAGDU<nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>   On Behalf Of Cindy Ray via
>>>>>> NAGDU
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2024 10:22 PM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Users<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Cc: Cindy Ray<cindyray at gmail.com>
>>>>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Graduate feedback
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Elizabeth asked an interesting question in her previous message. Do
>>>>>> the schools appreciate our feedback when we are out using our dogs.
>>>>>> If our experiences make us think changes could be well received in
>>>>>> training, do they listen to us? Do they ever incorporate them. Do
>>>>>> you feel heard when talking to the school if it is not about your
>>>>>> current dog? Elizabeth, you can address that because maybe I didn’t
>>>>>> make it completely clearly according to what you were looking for.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cindy Lou Ray
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
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>>>>>>
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