[Nfb-science] Braille Displays

Sun Sep 5 17:09:27 UTC 2010

One more thing re foreign languages: that German spelling can often be 
inferred from pronunciation plus a knowledge of gender is reflected in the 
wonderful Nuance Steffi software speech synth. I have never heard any speech 
synth in any language (even English) that reads inflected and with proper 
emphasis like she does. Wow!

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
To: "NFB Science and Engineering Division List" <nfb-science at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 9:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Nfb-science] Braille Displays

> Jule:
>
> I don't quarrel with your arguments one iota. In fact, I agree with you 
> ten times over re the usefulness of Braille. But I agree if you substitute 
> "paper Braille" for "refreshable Braile display". I'm sorry but IMO 
> refreshable Braille seems to me largely useless when it comes to complex 
> math where equations take many lines and it is useful to look at part of 
> the equation with one hand while reading on with the other. Moreover, much 
> complex math is spacial and without a lot of dinking around and changing 
> cursor positions, refreshable Braille displays convey such information no 
> better than do audio displays.
>
> Again, I wholeheartedly agree with you re learning of foregn languages --  
> at least at the beginning. But, frankly, foreign languages in any form on 
> a computer are IMO a pain in the deriere in that one must worry about code 
> pages, keyboard interpretations, not to mention Braille translation or no 
> and even then, are we working to U.S. or native country Braille standards. 
> Again, I prefer paper Braille.
>
> AS one becomes familiar with a language such as Spanish or German, one 
> learns to handle the audio and infer spelling rules from the pronunciation 
> itself (I speak fluent German and some French and Spanish and taught 
> myself French Grade 2 Braille orthography) so that having the text in 
> Braille isn't quite as necessary though a good reader of whom to ask 
> questions is often quite handy and sufficient and costs a lot less than 
> the refreshable Braille display.
>
> Again, my quarrel is not with Braille -- you darn well know I insisted 
> upon Braille math texts in high school and college up to graduate 
> school -- but rather with the necessity of a refreshable Braille display. 
> I use one for note-taking and such and love it but for poetry and the 
> like -- thanks but no thanks. e. e. Cummings poetry just doesn't get it 
> with a refreshable display.
>
> Yours in friendly discussion,
>
> Mike Freeman
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jewel S." <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
> To: "NFB Science and Engineering Division List" <nfb-science at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 9:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nfb-science] Braille Displays
>
>
>> You may use audio as you would print, but I can think of several
>> instances in which a refrshable Braille display would be the better
>> option and well worth the cost.
>>
>> The frist instance is an example from my own life. I cannot learn
>> audioally. It takes me twice as long to learn from an audio textbook
>> what I'd learn from a Brailled textbook. I know this because I have
>> taken Hadley classes in both audio and Braille formats and now take
>> them exclusively in Braille because I find it very hard to follow the
>> text when it is in audio format. Further, I cannot listen to an audio
>> clip or tape and something else at the same time (such as a teacher
>> talking or someone discussing the text). However, hardcopy Braille is
>> not always practical, even if it is available (I have a friend who got
>> her high school math book for this year...it is five volumes of
>> Braille! I think a digital Braille text would have been a better
>> option, especially since their house is full of Braille books in every
>> room, so sometimes finding the right volume is not easy, whereas
>> digital Braille can be labelled and searched for wih ease).
>>
>> Another instance in which Braille would be preferable over audio on a
>> computer is for people with hearing loss. I have a friend who is
>> totally blind since the age of three and reads Braille at
>> almost-lightning speed. However, give her something to listen to and
>> it takes her at least twice as long to read it because she has to go
>> back over it several times. She misses words because she can't hear
>> them. She also cannot listen to what is going on in her environment at
>> the same time, so listening to an audio textbook or something on her
>> computer while in class would a no-no...she'd miss what the teacher
>> was saying half the time because she was working with her computer,
>> even if all she is doing is listening to herself type so she doesn't
>> make typos.
>>
>> Further, for a deafblind person, a refreshable Braille display can
>> mean the difference between having full access to the computer and
>> having little or no access. Audio simply isn't a usable resource for a
>> deafblind person, but Braille can open alll the doors to
>> accessibility.
>>
>> Another instance in which the refreshable Braille display would be
>> preferable over a screenreader is while reading specially formatted
>> text. Tables are easier to read in Braille then listen to. Poems in
>> special format (all right aligned, some ines left-aligned, some
>> right-aligned, and some centered, or all the lines centered) would not
>> have the full effect in audio, but with a refreshable Braille dispaly,
>> the special formatting would still have its intended effect.
>>
>> One last example I can think of (that doesn't mean there aren't more,
>> it's just that I don't want to go on and on...I think you get the
>> picture, or I hope you do) is when the spelling of a word really
>> matters. For example, when learning a foreign language or new
>> vocabulary that is difficult to spell. Do you think it would be easier
>> to learn how to spell omnipotamia if you had it in Braille or listened
>> to it? Which would make it faster to check the spelling? In my
>> opinion, the Braille display, since you could see the spelling as you
>> read it, while with a screenreader, you would have to go back and have
>> the screenreader spell it over or go over it character by character.
>> In the Harry Potter books, I listened to the first two in audio and
>> kept wondering "How do you spell Hermione"? With an "io" or an "Oi"?
>> It really bugged me, because I am a geek like that. But what if you
>> had to write an essay about a novel you read for school, and you
>> misspelled the name of the main character because you listened to the
>> book instead of reading it using a Braille display (perhaps because
>> you got the book from Bookshare or it's from an online library, or its
>> 13 volumes and you dn't want the hassle of carrying around all those
>> volumes)? I think the teacher would be certain to correct you, but it
>> would be quite embarrassing if the character's name is Maudraline, and
>> you spelled it Modraleen or some such...spelling can be important, and
>> you can't learn spelling from audio books! When learning a foreign
>> language, knowing where the accents are placed or how an odd word is
>> spelled is quite important. In Spanish, an accent or the lack thereof
>> can make a huge difference. As example, consider the difference etween
>> por que and por que (wht an accent on the e). The first means because;
>> the second why. When listening to an audio book, you might hear "Por
>> que vas al mar" If there is an accent on the e and a question mark, it
>> would mean "Why do you go to the sea?" and if there is no accent and a
>> period, it would mean "Because you go to the sea."
>>
>> I agree that for some people, a refreshable Braille display would be a
>> waste of money. My boyfriend is one of those people. He not only
>> doesn't read Braille well (and only uncontracted Braille), but he is
>> dyslexic, so reading the Braille on a refreshable disaply, he would be
>> more likely to missepll a word or misunderstand it. His preference is
>> for something like the VictorStream Reader, which will read the words,
>> but you can also go back and sepell the words. Other people, whether
>> dyslexic or simply an audio learner, just learn better when hearing
>> something compared to reading it or seeing it. For these people, a
>> screenreader would be preferrable.
>>
>> But that does not mean that a refreshable Braille display is a waste
>> of money for everyone. As I hope I demonstrated above, there are many
>> instances in which a refreshable Braille display is not only well
>> worth the cost, it is also an essential tool. some of the reasons I
>> gave above rre those I gave when arguing for a refreshable Braille
>> display to be purchased as an essentila accessible technology for
>> purchase by Vocational Rehabilitation. I won that argument and will be
>> getting a refreshable Braille display, which I think I could not
>> succeed completely without. I tried to take a Spanish class without
>> access to my book in Braille, but I ended up asking the professor
>> every time she wrote something whether there was an accent in the
>> words she wrote, and I had trouble remembering accents. I also had to
>> read part of a book out loud in a class as part of group participation
>> (it was a skit), but had difficulty doing this by listening then
>> repeating. If I had had it in Braille, I would have had no trouble
>> reading it out loud as my fingers moved over the lines.
>>
>> I hope that these arguments make sense, and I hope this will add
>> positive infoormation to the conversation. Thank you for allowing me
>> to ramble about it *grin*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 9/4/10, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>>> I disagree with Robert in that I don't think
>>> Braille displays are worth the money in general although there may be
>>> specific employment situations (call centers anyone?) wherein they might 
>>> be
>>> helpful. I believe with a bit of ingenuity, one can largely discern 
>>> computer
>>> programming formats and the like with speech. But then I may be cheating
>>> because for many years, I used an Optacon with CRT lens to read the 
>>> computer
>>> screen and do my programming.
>>>
>>> And yes, I have a braille note-taker so I'm not knocking braille.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Christine Szostak" <szostak.1 at osu.edu>
>>> To: "NFB Science and Engineering Division List" <nfb-science at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 8:45 AM
>>> Subject: [Nfb-science] Braille Displays
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi All,
>>>>  John's post prompted a question for me.
>>>>
>>>>  For those who use Braille displays with JAWS, what specifically do you
>>>> find them most useful for? Are they worth the investment in your 
>>>> opinion
>>>> and if so, is there a particular brand that tends to be highly
>>>> recommended?
>>>> Many thanks
>>>> Christine
>>>> Christine M. Szostak
>>>> Graduate Student
>>>> Language Perception Laboratory
>>>> Department of Psychology, Cognitive Area
>>>> The Ohio State University
>>>> Columbus, Ohio
>>>> szostak.1 at osu.edu
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Nfb-science mailing list
>>>> Nfb-science at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-science_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Nfb-science:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-science_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Nfb-science mailing list
>>> Nfb-science at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-science_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Nfb-science:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-science_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> ~Jewel
>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Nfb-science mailing list
>> Nfb-science at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-science_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Nfb-science:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-science_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nfb-science mailing list
> Nfb-science at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-science_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Nfb-science:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-science_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com 