[nfb-talk] Enough already!

[Wm. Ritchhart]

I will comment on this new string now, simply because I have seen two of
these emails and I think John is getting mal-used this time.  In this
argument, It was others who immediately started with the nasty personal
attacks.  John responded.  I don't blame him.  It is what we all are prone
to do when attacked.  

Few of the responses in the string on the Home-Make-Over topic actually were
based on logic and data that exists.  If we want to convince John and others
that our ideas are correct, we need to stop, do the research and then
present it in a logical and straight forward manner.  

One person I think did that in the commenting on audible traffic signals.
However the power of his argument was seriously diminished when he finished
making his logical points and started in on John.  I immediately stopped
reading and deleted the email at that point.  So if there was any meaningful
comment on the signals at the bottom it was missed.

Let's all try to stick to facts and remember that we are all at different
points in our development as blind people and Federationists.  We will never
change anybody's mind by attacking them.

Thanks, William


-----Original Message-----
From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Ray Foret Jr
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 5:13 PM
To: NFB Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Enough already!

David, I must agree with Joseph on this point.  I will speak frankly here.
Why do you tolerate vicious attacks on not only the NFB but on the members
of this list who hold with that way of thinking, not just because some
federation leader says so, but because of their own personal experience?  I
understand wanting to tolerate healthy and open and honest discussion; but
David, there are some individuals, (I'm not going to name names because I
believe you know who they are if you have been truly reading the posts
here), who have violently attacked not only me but others who think as I do.
I have had enough; and, so, I dare say, have those who hold with me.  I'm
not giving out the names of these attackers because I don't feel the need to
sink this list in to that mire.  If a person honestly does not know the
answer to the reason why an independent blind person says or thinks or does
something, of course, it goes without  saying that they should feel more
than free to ask.  But Dave, I think we both know that this is not what
Joseph and I are talking about here.  Honest ignorance is one thing.
Attacks are another.  I will not claim to be totally guiltless myself in
this regard, and so, indeed, I may not be.  However, this has truly gone on
quite long enough.  I'm writing this as an open response so that everyone
may know just exactly how I feel.  Mind you, I can't speak for others here
directly, (only they can and must), but, I think I know some others here
well enough to be able to make a fairly good guess at how they feel.  This
is supposed to be a list where ideas can be freely shared, and, sans the
personal attacks, (which have become more and more of late), it is.  But, I
too have noticed that those who defend the NFB positions on certain matters
are threatened and the attackers defended.  Why is this?  Surely, you must
know what I'm talking about?  I believe you do.  Tolerance is, in general,
good, but, there comes a time when enough is enough.  It would appear that,
(at least with respect to Joseph and myself), our patience has about reached
it's end.


Sincerely, 
The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!

Now A Very Proud and very happy Mac user!!!

Skype Name:
barefootedray

On Dec 9, 2010, at 2:05 PM, T. Joseph Carter wrote:

> David,
> 
> Have you noticed the trend of discussions on this list over the past
couple of years or so?  I have, and I've double-checked the archives to be
sure I wasn't reading something into it.  The pattern is that every large
discussion seems to involve one group of people arguing for the ability of
the blind, for the NFB, its policies, and its mission.  The other side of
the discussion is generally one person.
> 
> The pattern of the discussion is that the individual says something
incendiary against one of the above, something I have a hard time accepting
is unintentional at this point.  The group reacts, some with distaste, some
with disagreement, and some with anger.  This last group has taken the bait,
if you will.
> 
> This is where you come in, because inevitably the individual insists that
he is "offended" and "baselessly attacked" for his views.  You defend him,
going so far as to threaten to ban longtime regulars and well-respected
federationists.  The individual takes this as a sign that he may stand
behind you, and continue to insult not only us few here, but everything this
organization stands for.
> 
> The fact that there is not a single person on this list that does not know
of whom I speak is evidence in and of itself.  It's really got to stop.
Those who would not be flamed should not make a habit of setting fires.
Having set a few myself over the years, it comes with the territory.
> 
> Joseph
> 
> 
> On Wed, Dec 08, 2010 at 10:19:24PM -0600, David Andrews wrote:
>> This is a personal attack and is totally unacceptable.  You can disagree
with someone -- but please stick to facts, not speculation etc.
>> 
>> David Andrews, Moderator
>> 
>> At 03:09 PM 12/6/2010, you wrote:
>>> I agree Gloria.  He is a very shallow person, and I don't care of his
$250,000 house is paid off or not.  He could rip off Bernie Madoff, the
biggest cheat in the world, and he wouldn't impress me..smile.
>>> 
>>> Connie Canode
>> 
>> 
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> 
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