[nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)

Wed Apr 13 22:07:56 UTC 2011

Actually what I favor is a different approach:  deny foreign aid to countries that harbor spammers!

Mike Freeman
sent from my iPhone

On Apr 13, 2011, at 14:16, Joshua Lester <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu> wrote:

> Mr. Freeman, let's try to invent a new alternative.
> I'm not a computer genius, but if someone can do this, I'd appreciate it.
> Blessings, Joshua
> 
> On 4/13/11, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>> Guys and gals:
>> 
>> Let's get real here.  John Heim is absolutely correct:  his boss may be a
>> decent person.  But she doesn't care a farthing how CAPTCHAs affect the
>> blind.  There aren't enough of us to truly affect offenders' bottom lines.
>> All webmasters want is to stop spam (something all of us can sympathize with
>> unless we are the spammers!).  If a few thousand people are inconvenienced
>> or shut out of sites, so what?  The Federal agency for which I work gets
>> something like fifty thousand spam emails (yes, you heard right) each *week*
>> and this wastes a heck of a lot of resources and bandwidth.  I'd guess its
>> websites do also.
>> 
>> Fulminating and venting one's spleen in irrational outbursts avails us
>> nothing.  Neither does writing to webmasters; we'd never be able to cover
>> them all.  Even if we can get courts to rule that the ADA applies, I'd bet
>> good money that Joshua's nemesis site would fall under the religious
>> exceptions to ADA requirements.
>> 
>> I sympathize with everyone's indignation; I am stymied by CAPTCHA's also.
>> But I'm realistic enough to realize that it's an ongoing race between
>> spammers/hackers and web developers.  CAPTCHAs certainly aren't the ultimate
>> answer but, I submit, any solution that would allow screen-readers access
>> will also allow spammers/hackers access.  And yes, I've used Delta Airlines
>> wonderful alternative to the CAPTCHA available on their flights where one
>> answers a math question.  But does this not discriminate against the
>> learning-disabled?  And I could envision a spammer employing a Cray or other
>> super-machine to simply sort through possible answers and brute-force its
>> way to the solution.
>> 
>> My psychological defense is to figure that any website that leaves me out I
>> don't need either.
>> 
>> I can see only two solutions:  build up a billion-dollar legal fund to sue
>> every web developer or website owner (and we must figure on losing at least
>> half the suits) or getting down to brass tacks and inventing and patenting a
>> CAPTCHA alternative that appears convincing enough to be adopted by a
>> majority of web developers.
>> 
>> 
>> Mike Freeman
>> sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> 
>> On Apr 13, 2011, at 9:26, Joshua Lester <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> I also agree.
>>> So, what's the holdup?
>>> Let's get the sighted people on this list to visit every site, (I've
>>> mentioned the sites on the Music Talk list,) and contact the
>>> Webmasters.
>>> Some of us can't contact them, because of the captcha.
>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>> 
>>> On 4/13/11, Gloria Whipple <ladygloria at webband.com> wrote:
>>>> Peter,
>>>> 
>>>> I agree with you all the way!
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Gloria Whipple
>>>> Corresponding Secretary
>>>> Inland Empire chapter
>>>> nfb of WA
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of Peter Donahue
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 09:05
>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)
>>>> 
>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>> 
>>>>   Audio captchas are of no use to the deaf-blind . For God sakes if we
>>>> can
>>>> 
>>>> develop the technology that allowed us to put a blind guy behind the
>>>> wheel
>>>> of an automobile and drive it independently we should be able to find a
>>>> way
>>>> to allow captchas to be recognized by screen readers while protecting Web
>>>> sites and such from the bad guys. The belief that the technology to do
>>>> this
>>>> is not there doesn't wash with me.
>>>> 
>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Joshua Lester" <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 8:38 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> John, what's really bad, is if there are multiple blind people in a
>>>> church denomination, and their site's contact form, or church locater,
>>>> are inaccessible.
>>>> My organization's Website is like that.
>>>> They have an audio file that's supposed to play the captcha, but it won't
>>>> play.
>>>> I'll post the Website here.
>>>> www.upci.org
>>>> I've contacted their IT department, but they have done nothing about
>>>> this.
>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>> 
>>>> On 4/13/11, John Heim <john at johnheim.net> wrote:
>>>>> A few months ago, the Department of Justice said that the ADA applies to
>>>>> web
>>>>> sites. This is a big deal. Since the Department of Justice is
>>>>> responsible
>>>>> for enforcing laws like the ADA, if the Department of Justice says the
>>>>> ADA
>>>>> applies to web sites, then it does.  A business would have to go to
>>>>> court
>>>>> to
>>>>> show that the DOJ overstepped its bounds in making that determination.
>>>>> But
>>>>> the burden of proof would be on them. Well, anyway, the point is that
>>>>> CAPTCHAs are now illegal.
>>>>> 
>>>>> IMO, this is one of the toughest issues we face. My own boss came to me
>>>>> yesterday wanting to put a captcha on our web site. I had to talk really
>>>>> long to get her to not do it. It was a really tough sell and I only got
>>>>> her
>>>>> to agree on a provisional basis. If an alternate solution I came up with
>>>>> doesn't work, she will probably insist on using the captcha. Her point
>>>>> is
>>>>> that the page we want to protect simply isn't visited very often by
>>>>> blind
>>>>> people. Its not worth the trouble to make it accessible.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I've pointed out that its a matter of principle. I've even mentioned
>>>>> what
>>>>> a
>>>>> bitter thing it would be for me to install captcha software. I've
>>>>> pointed
>>>>> out our legal responsibilities. All this makes little to no difference.
>>>>> All
>>>>> that really matters is that captchas work. Honestly, I was sitting there
>>>>> thinking of trying to write software to break captchas and sending it to
>>>>> every spammer I can find.
>>>>> 
>>>>> By the way, my boss is not a bad person by any means. She is very open
>>>>> minded. I just think that if you're not blind, you don't see what the
>>>>> problem is.
>>>>> 
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Joshua Lester" <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
>>>>> To: <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 10:25 PM
>>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi, it's Joshua Lester.
>>>>>> I've posted this on the Faith Talk list, and the Music list, but I'm
>>>>>> not having any success.
>>>>>> I've just thought of a question.
>>>>>> I'd like everyone's feedback.
>>>>>> How can we better influence the Webmasters of their sites, to make
>>>>>> more accessible contact forms?
>>>>>> How can they make them, where they can differentiate, between Jaws, and
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> Robot?
>>>>>> I want them to make the captcha, where Jaws can catch it, and read it
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> us.
>>>>>> What can we do?
>>>>>> Thanks for your ideas.
>>>>>> This is for all Websites.
>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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