[Nfb-web] *Important Alert* Be Aware of and Check Archiving and Other Privacy Options In Mailman Mailing Lists

[David Andrews]

Mike:

Thanks for the kid words, and both your concerns are valid.  I will 
think about a packet -- the other thing we haven't done as well at as 
we could is making it clear to people that lists are publicly 
archived and searchable.  I have always resisted having a hard and 
fast set of rules, because as soon as I draw a line in the sand, a 
bunch of people feel compelled to step over it.

For the most part things have worked out well.

Dave

At 05:16 PM 1/24/2012, you wrote:
>Mika,
>
>In the past year the NFB of Nebraska has moved our lists to NFBNet
>from another in house solution we were using. We did this for several
>reasons but when we did security / privacy was a top issue that I
>discussed with Dave.
>
>We have 2 lists one is wide open. Anyone can join, Anyone can look at
>the archives, but the posts have to be approved by a moderator.   The
>second list is more secure. Subscriptions have to be approved by the
>moderator, posts have to be approved by the moderator and the archives
>are password protected.
>
>Both of our lists are publicly listed so people know about them but
>they do have the above restrictions. This configuration has worked out
>very well for us so far. I can't find anything negative about the
>service Dave provides, I can only make the following 2 comments.
>
>1. It frustrates me (because I am a knowledgiable power user and like
>to do things myself) that I can't have total control over my own list.
>That being said I understand and respect Dave's point of view
>regaurding not wanting the server to become a free for all.
>
>2. It might be nice if Dave put togther a new list request packet. To
>disclose and explain the options that are available. Dave is typically
>happy to configure a list any way that you a person wants, however if
>you don't know what to ask for (or know that something is available)
>then that can be limiting as well.
>
>Dave Job well done.
>Mike
>---
>Mike Hansen
>NFB of Nebraska
>
>
>On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:01 PM, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:
> > On 1/24/2012 10:15 AM, Mika Pyyhkala wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Steve,
> >>
> >> Thanks for your note and thoughts.
> >>
> >> One nuance I did not mention is that I was referring to Mailman lists
> >> that one hosts on their own domain.  In other words, not NFBNet lists,
> >> but just a local installation of Mailman in a web hosting account.
> >>
> >> Its obviously a very simple setting to chage, but something you may
> >> not think about or may inadvertintly overlook.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> Mika
> >>
> >>
> >> On 1/24/12, Steve Jacobson<steve.jacobson at visi.com>  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Mika,
> >>>
> >>> Since I've helped as a backup for Dave Andrews in the past and have
> >>> looked
> >>> some at options for our
> >>> state's lists, I would like to raise a couple of points.  First, though,
> >>> I
> >>> am not a cheerleader for
> >>> mailman.  However, I also think that most of your concerns can be
> >>> managed.
> >>>
> >>> When A new list is set up on NFBNET, it is not necessarily set up as
> >>> though
> >>> it came "out of the box."
> >>> We have lists that are "hidden" in that they do not show up on our
> >>> general
> >>> NFBNET page, and there are
> >>> hidden lists that are also not archived.  Part of the reason for
> >>> establishing NFBNET has been to provide
> >>> a way to show the public what issues are important to blind people and to
> >>> see how blind people think
> >>> about such issues.  With the increasing number of lists over the years
> >>> with
> >>> specific purposes, though,
> >>> this role is somewhat more complex now.  Dave Andrews is very familiar
> >>> with
> >>> the settings that can govern
> >>> a list and he can be of help.
> >>>
> >>> While I do not think it is right for someone to believe a list is private
> >>> when it isn't, I also think we
> >>> have to be somewhat realistic about how private e-mail is.  Certainly one
> >>> does not want controversial
> >>> legislative plans to be immediately available on Google, but one always
> >>> has
> >>> to be aware of the fact that
> >>> once written, something can be accidentally forwarded to the wrong place.
> >>> Some care should be taken as
> >>> to what is put in writing even if not archived.
> >>>
> >>> In looking at other list software, one has to be careful to not just look
> >>> at
> >>> what the software can do
> >>> but also how well it can be managed.  I find it very frustrating, for
> >>> example, that I do not seem to be
> >>> able to simply change an e-mail address on Google Groups.  It appears I
> >>> have
> >>> to delete and add again.
> >>> If any of you know that there is a better way, please let me know.  We
> >>> have
> >>> also tried to provide a
> >>> system that one can count on to be accessible over the long haul.  More
> >>> than
> >>> one of us has experienced
> >>> the frustration of managing a list only to find one day that we can no
> >>> longer easily perform certain
> >>> functions.
> >>>
> >>> Please understand that my intent here is not to be a commercial for
> >>> Mailman
> >>> or NFBNET, but rather just
> >>> to explain some of what we try to do and to make the point that you are
> >>> not
> >>> the first to raise these
> >>> concerns.  Your concerns are valid ones, but they are known issues when a
> >>> new list is set up on NFBNET.
> >>>
> >>> Best regards,
> >>>
> >>> Steve Jacobson
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 09:26:06 -0500, Mika Pyyhkala wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Greetings,
> >>>> There are some settings and options in the widely used Mailman mailing
> >>>> list program which you should be aware of, and verify that your lists
> >>>> are appropriately configured.
> >>>> Archiving Options
> >>>> When a Mailman mailing list is set up out-of-the-box, the Archiving
> >>>> Options are set such that the list traffic is searchable.  In other
> >>>> words, the default setup is not private, and data can be searched via
> >>>> search engines that is posted on these mailing lists.  This could be
> >>>> an issue if you internally use Mailman mailing lists in your affiliate
> >>>> or group for confidential discussions, or for items that are not yet
> >>>> ready for public release.  It is simple to turn the search feature
> >>>> off, but again, this is not the out of box default configuration when
> >>>> you create a list, and the system does not readily prompt you that
> >>>> this should be checked.
> >>>> Other Options: There are other privacy options which you may want to
> >>>> check that have to do with, for example, where list members can see
> >>>> other subscribers.
> >>>> I would also be curious if any of you recommend alternatives to the
> >>>> Mailman mailing list solution.  While it has a lot of features, it is
> >>>> somewhat cumbersome to use, and again I don't think its out-of-box
> >>>> configuration is the best.  It also sends out the monthly reminders
> >>>> which you may not need, especially if you have an announce only list.
> >>>> I realize you may be able to turn these auto generated messages off,
> >>>> but I have to think there is a better mailing list solution especially
> >>>> for announcement based or internal use lists (as opposed to forum type
> >>>> discussion lists) which Mailman originally was likely designed for.
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>> Mika Pyyhkala
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Nfb-web mailing list
> >>>> Nfb-web at nfbnet.org
> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-web_nfbnet.org
> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>>> Nfb-web:
> >>>>
> >>>> 
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-web_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Nfb-web mailing list
> >>> Nfb-web at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-web_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>> Nfb-web:
> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-web_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40gmail.com
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Nfb-web mailing list
> >> Nfb-web at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-web_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> Nfb-web:
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-web_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com
> >> Hi Mika:
> >
> >
> > I didn't think you were specifically referring to nfbnet.org hosted mailing
> > lists.  You have given some good advice -- and some of the problems with
> > mailman and/or mailing lists in general is that many people really don't
> > understand them.
> >
> > Steve has given a good explanation of our general practices here.  We have
> > public and private lists.  Personally I think that most public lists should
> > be archived and searchable, they are public lists after all -- and people
> > can benefit from past posts.  Now that our whole site search is fixed once
> > again, there are some powerful search options available.
> >
> > I don't normally give moderators and others access to Mailman 
> settings, with
> > so many lists, varying degrees of knowledge, etc., I don't want each list
> > set differently, will be too confusing.
> >
> > I can of course change individual settings for list moderators, and discuss
> > with the list sponsor what they want initially.
> >
> > I have been using Mailman for 10 years, and while I can't say I would never
> > change, I would have to have a good reason.  I pretty well know how it
> > works, what it will do etc.  Mailman 3 is just about to go into 
> beta, and it
> > will be more user oriented, over the current individual list orientation --
> > and password reminders will go away.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Nfb-web mailing list
> > Nfb-web at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-web_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > Nfb-web:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-web_nfbnet.org/mhansen4%40gmail.com
>
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