[nfbcs] FW: [IDevices] Your Help Is Needed, Apple Feedback
Steve Jacobson
steve.jacobson at visi.com
Sat Aug 31 21:13:37 UTC 2013
Ian and others,
To some degree, I probably contributed to this topic spinning out of control. Since I consider Mike to be a good friend, I think that I can safely say he would not likely disagree with the idea that work-arounds
are short term. I have a number of concerns with where we are right now with accessibility, and I no for certain that some of my concerns are shared by Mike. I also think that some of my frustrations with
becoming comfortable with the iPhone have caused me not to be as clear as I might have been. I appreciate very much the tips several people have given, for example, for dialing extra digits after a call has
been completed. Actually, I've used the commas in dialing strings as has been suggested, and that is a good fix, but of course it doesn't work when entering variable responses, and I don't think I would
choose to enter banking information that way. However, I believe strongly that Mike's point is correct that we have to be careful of what we ask for in the name of accessibility and what are "nice-to-haves. I
would say, though, that we have the right to ask for nice-to-haves but we need to be careful whether we claim accessibility to get them. For example, I mentioned that it has become more difficult on the last
few phones to enter my voicemail password for work. My previous phone was a Windows Mobile 6 smartphone with a QWERTY keyboard across one end. I seriously doubt that a sighted person could dial or
enter a pass code on that phone any easier than I could. Much of the frustration I expressed with BusLine are frustrations that would likely be encountered to some degree by sighted persons. Certainly the
issue surrounding the need to mute the phone would be the same. My point is partly that just because something may not be a true accessibility issue doesn't mean we don't have the right to request it, but we
need to be careful of where we play the accessibility card. It is sometimes easy to blame any frustration that we might have on accessibility, but some frustrations are simply those experienced by everyone
when dealing with rapidly changing technology, and there is a lot we can learn from one another.
Best regards,
Steve Jacobson
On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 18:06:48 -0400, I. C. Bray wrote:
>Mike,
>I think the point is that if you can get the native problem fixed instead of
>using a work-a-round, it is preferred.
>Any time someone asks for feedback, input, or commentary on how to "fix" a
>problem, it is an opportunity to do just that.
>Work-a-rounds are temporary solutions, in my opinion. Sharing work-a-rounds
>is great, but the issue should be resolved natively.
>This makes the long-run support of any product more viable. There will
>always be a short-cut, but fix the problem, and you won't need them.
>If you had a heart-wound, would you like a big band-aid(tm), or someone to
>sew you up permanently?
>Ian
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
>To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 3:41 PM
>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] FW: [IDevices] Your Help Is Needed, Apple Feedback
>> Steve:
>>
>> It's not that I condemn asking for such modifications; I simply do not see
>> their necessity in view of the fact that there are easy work-arounds. To
>> me,
>> wearing ear-buds has pretty-much solved any awkwardness entering numbers
>> etc.I will admit, however, to being much more sympathetic totrue
>> accessibility issues as opposed to having "nice-to-have" requests.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
>> Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 10:33 AM
>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] FW: [IDevices] Your Help Is Needed, Apple Feedback
>>
>> Wow, Mike, I didn't see this coming at all. I get the impression that if
>> we
>> were talking about Window-Eyes or JAWS, that neither you or Jim would have
>> a
>> problem with us asking them to make changes for us, but since Apple has
>> taken on this responsibility, we've lost all right to ask for anything
>> that
>> a sighted person doesn't have. Apple is now a mainstream manufacturer and
>> an assistive technology producer, so I don't understand the reasoning that
>> asking for something is a betrayal of our philosophy.
>> Frankly, these are important and complicated issues, and we have to get an
>> understanding of what they involve and have a somewhat uniform approach,
>> so
>> I am very interested in your take on this. I didn't think I was going out
>> on a limb at all in my last note and am both surprised and concerned that
>> you think I did. By the way, how is the mute button any easier for a
>> sighted person to press? My comment that I wish I had a mute button to me
>> seems reasonable for anyone to ask, not just a blind person, but I am
>> truly
>> not going to mount a campaign to have it done. <smile>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Steve Jacobson
>>
>> On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 10:07:37 -0700, Mike Freeman wrote:
>>
>>>Steve:
>>
>>>There *is* a Mute button: once a call has been connected, find the
>>>Hide Keypad button; then flick left until you find the Mute Button.
>>>Double-tap it; then double-tap back where the Hide Keypad button was (I
>>>think it now says Show Keypad) and the keypad is again visible. Yes,
>>>this is a bit more cumbersome than a sighted person must go through but
>>>when did we ever guarantee that blindness *wasn't* a nuisance?
>>
>>>Mike
>>
>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve
>>>Jacobson
>>>Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 8:35 AM
>>>To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] FW: [IDevices] Your Help Is Needed, Apple Feedback
>>
>>>Kevin,
>>
>>>Interestingly, I played around with this some and found that a
>>>bluetooth keyboard can select and push keypad buttons by navigating to
>>>them with the arrow keys. This is probably still too slow for long
>>>strings of numbers but can work more efficiently in some cases than
>>>using the touch keypad. I also found that the numbers on a bluetooth
>>>keyboard can be used to enter a number before dialing, and even to
>>>enter the digits of one's pass code. As a programmer, I can accept
>>>that the keypad that is visible after a call is complete may be
>>>different that that displayed before and during a call even if it looks
>>>similarly, but this isn't a logical assumption for a user to make.
>>
>>>Another aspect of this that I've seen that can cause difficulty is that
>>>some systems are geared to accept numbers or voice input such as
>>>BusLine here in the Twin Cities with which you are likely familiar.
>>>Even if the menu options don't time out as such, slow entry causes that
>>>system to try to interpret background sounds. Muting the microphone
>>>would probably help this situation, some.
>>>I suspect that you are right that the inputting of numbers in those
>>>situations from a keyboard is not something that has been disabled by
>>>design. Where I also agree with Jim is that we sometimes react quickly
>>>to a problem without necessarily understanding the entire problem.
>>>However, I also completely understand the frustration of some, and I
>>>think we have to realize that while Apple has shown us that using a
>>>touch device is more than just possible, there are aspects of this that we
>> don't fully understand yet.
>>>It is my belief, for example, perhaps founded more on observation than
>>>real scientific fact, that since we are going to depend some on our
>>>memory of where buttons and controls are to gain efficiency, those of
>>>us who are lucky enough to have a good sense of spacial relationships
>>>are going to do better than those who have less of that ability. For a
>>>sighted user, spacial relationships are not an issue since they are
>>>locating buttons visually and touching them. Therefore, the sighted
>>>person who finds reading maps to be frustrating because they have a
>>>poor sense of spacial relationships will not have a problem with using
>>>a touch screen, while a blind person with that same lack of ability
>>>will have more trouble navigating a touch screen efficiently.
>>
>>>I also find that an earphone is an essential tool. Again, going back
>>>to Busline, I depend upon being able to hear what is being spoken as a
>>>cue that my input has been received. For example, entering a response
>>>before the system has finished the menu causes it to stop reading.
>>>When holding the phone so that buttons are seen visually, one cannot
>>>hear responses as easily, but of course, placing the phone near one's
>>>ear disables the touch screen as it has to. My thought was that the
>>>answer is to use an earphone that does not have a microphone for such
>>>purposes. The iPhone is too smart for that, though, as it seems to
>>>know when one uses regular stereo earphones without a microphone and it
>>>leaves its internal microphone enabled, so I still have trouble with
>>>slow responses on the keypad causing the system to which I am connected
>>>to try to process audio input. I miss having a simple "mute"
>>>button.
>>
>>>If we, as people with a technical background, are able to adequately
>>>explain that a given feature is not a simple thing to implement,
>>>thereby causing consumers to approach a developer or manufacturer more
>>>reasonably, we should by all means do that.
>>>However, I don't think it is our job to tell consumers that something
>>>can't be done easily when we don't really know how easily it could be
>>>accomplished. I am very glad that I can do so much more with my iPhone
>>>than I could do with the first couple of cellphones I owned. However,
>>>I find it frustrating that each of the last three phones I have used
>>>has made checking my work voicemail where I have to enter a 6-digit ID a
>> slower process.
>>
>>>Best regards,
>>
>>>Steve Jacobson
>>
>>>On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 17:41:15 -0500, Kevin Fjelsted wrote:
>>
>>>>SInce there is an edit field where numbers are displayed the change
>>>>could probably be made fairly easy to support number entry
>>>from the BlueTooth keyboard.
>>>>I think the larger issue which would require programming is that the
>>>>user interface for the keyboard is tied to the same
>>>mechanism that permits the on screen keyboard to be visible or hidden
>>>in tandem with the BLueTooth keyboard.
>>>>Thus Apple may not be considering this because the keypad is totally
>>>different than the keyboard mode.
>>
>>>>I find menu options to be quite straight forward and even short pin
>>>>numbers
>>>or passwords up to say 7 numbers in length.
>>>>I do find that longer fields such as entering a meeting i.d., for a
>>>>service such as "go to meeting" which may have 12 to 15
>>>digits can time out by the time I get that done.
>>>>I definitely believe that using a headset or earphone helps especially
>>>>in
>>>noisier environments.
>>>>-Kevin
>>
>>>>On Aug 28, 2013, at 5:27 PM, "Steve Jacobson"
>>>><steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>>>wrote:
>>
>>>>> Jim,
>>>>>
>>>>> The trouble is, I'm not sure that any of us would say we can dial as
>>>>> quickly with the touch keypad with voiceOver as one can
>>>visually. However, I'm not sure the answer is as simple as allowing a
>>>bluetooth
>>>>> keyboard during phone calls, either. I'd really like to know
>>>>> whether there is a reason that this isn't permitted as there
>>>might be a good one. Be that as it may, though, I am bothered a little
>>>if you feel that we
>>>>> don't have the right to ask for a feature that might be useful to us
>>>>> simply as customers. To me, to make a case that this is
>>>an accessibility issue might be stretching it, but we are now
>>>customers, and with my
>>>>> great big two months of experience with an iPhone under my belt, I
>>>>> do find that interacting with places that require
>>>significant data entry using the numeric keypad to be difficult at
>>>times. I am continuing to get
>>>>> better, though.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 09:25:29 -0700, Barcore wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hey Susie,
>>>>>
>>>>>> Can you explain how this is impacting blind people specifically?
>>>>>> Why are we not able to simply use the numbers on the on
>>>screen keyboard With a pair of headphones? I understand that if you
>>>have a
>>>>> Bluetooth keyboard, it would be more convenient to use those numbers.
>>>>> However, is this any different than it would be for
>>>sighted folks?
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>
>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Aug 28, 2013, at 7:35 AM, "Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO"
>>><Susan.Stanzel at kcc.usda.gov> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Listers,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know this might be considered off topic, but it is important.
>>>>>>> Apple
>>>needs to hear from us.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Susie Stanzel
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: IDevices [mailto:idevices-bounces at gatewayfortheblind.com] On
>>>>>>> Behalf Of David G. Carlson
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 9:24 AM
>>>>>>> To: Denny at GatewayForTheBlind.Com; IDevices at GatewayForTheBlind.Com
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [IDevices] Your Help Is Needed, Apple Feedback
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Done. Agree completely that using the on screen keypad is often
>>>>>>> not fast enough to satisfy the prompt processor. It's very
>>>frustrating.
>>>>>>> David G. Carlson
>>>>>>> Marketing / Sales Engineer
>>>>>>> RF Timing and Synchronization
>>>>>>> dgcarlson at sbcglobal.net<mailto:dgcarlson at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: Denny Huff<mailto:denny at gatewayfortheblind.com>
>>>>>>> To:
>>>>>>> IDevices at GatewayForTheBlind.Com<mailto:IDevices at GatewayForTheBlind.
>>>>>>> Com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 6:24 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: [IDevices] Your Help Is Needed, Apple Feedback
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you use Voiceover and have ever tried to use the
>>>>>>> numbers on your bluetooth keyboard while on a phone call,
>>>you have found that it doesn't work. This is a problem that Apple has
>>>not
>>>>> addressed and although the engineers have been made aware of the
>>>>> problem,
>>>it still hasn't been resolved.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is very difficult to enter a string of numbers on
>>>>>>> the IPhone in the amount of time allotted for many of the
>>>services we may call. IE: banking service, ordering products with a
>>>credit card, etc. For
>>>>> those that use a bluetooth keyboard this process would be much
>>>>> simpler if
>>>only we could use the numbers on the keyboard.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In order for this problem to be addressed and
>>>>>>> resolved in a timely manner, Apple needs to hear from us. The
>>>more people that send them feedback on this problem the more likely the
>>>engineers will
>>>>> take it seriously.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is what you can do. Follow one of the links
>>>>>>> below and let them know that you would like to see this
>>>problem be corrected. Let them know that you should be able to use
>>>Voiceover and the
>>>>> numbers on a bluetooth keyboard while on a phone call. Be courteous
>>>>> when making your complaint but also let them know how much
>>>this affects you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here are the links you can go to to submit your feedback to Apple;
>>>>>>> For the IPhone:
>>>>>>> http://www.apple.com/feedback/iphone.html
>>>>>>> For the IPad:
>>>>>>> http://www.apple.com/feedback/ipad.html
>>>>>>> All other devices and IOS apps:
>>>>>>> http://www.apple.com/feedback/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> __________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>> _
>>>>>>> Denny Huff
>>>>>>> Gateway For the Blind LLC.
>>>>>>> PO Box 515
>>>>>>> St. Clair, MO 63077
>>>>>>> Phone: (636) 262-1383
>>>>>>> FAX: (314) 558-0298
>>>>>>> WWW.GatewayForTheBlind.Com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Have questions about that IPhone, IPad or IPod Touch?
>>>>>>> Join the IDevices list serve and get answers to your questions and
>>>>>>> find
>>>out tips and tricks about using those devices.
>>>>>>> To join send an email message to:
>>>>>>> IDevices-Join at GatewayForTheBlind.Com<mailto:IDevices-Join at GatewayF
>>>>>>> o
>>>>>>> rTheBlind.Com>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>> The Gateway To Independence
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