[nfbcs] FW: your advice would be appreciatedFW: [List] Handling

Sun Jun 30 00:05:40 UTC 2013

Amazingly... I also agree here too.
I think that I get so involved with the logistics of a problem, that I 
forget the "POINT" is
not how to solve the problem, but how is the problem solved.
LOL.

Ian
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim Barbour" <jbar at barcore.com>
To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2013 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] FW: your advice would be appreciatedFW: [List] Handling

> Hi Gary,
>
> A lot of this has already been said, so I'll try and be brief.
>
> The student should absolutely take the class; in my mind it isn't even
> really much of a debate.  There may have to be some negotiation with
> the university, which I'd be happy to help with if necessary.
>
> The purpose of a design class is to learn what's important when
> designing applications; web applications in this case.
>
> Even if the student needed to engage a reader to do every bit of the
> work in the course, the student could still be expected to learn the
> principals, decision points, architecture, etc. of a well   The
> student probably will not come out of the course being literate in the
> particular tool being used, but isn't (well, shouldn't be) the point
> of the course.
>
> Since this course is a required course, the university must consider
> web design to be a pretty fundamental skill, which means it isn't
> about learning how to run the particular piece of software.
>
> Therefore, the ODR and the computer science department should
> absolutely be able to work out a way to teach this course to a blind
> student.
>
> Statements to the effect that this will be hard, or a waste of time,
> are absolutely not appropriate.
>
> I hope this is helpful, along with being a bit preachy <grin>
>
> Jim
>
> On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 07:43:06AM -0500, Gary Wunder wrote:
>> Folks, can you help me in helping a student who wants to know if it is
>> realistic for him to take a class in computer design?
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> Gary
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Mary ellen [mailto:gabias at telus.net]
>> Sent: Monday, June 24, 2013 2:25 PM
>> To: Wunder, Gary
>> Subject: your advice would be appreciatedFW: [List] Handling
>>
>> Hi Gary,
>>
>> I just received the following correspondence from and about a student who 
>> is
>> part of CFB.  I don't know enough about the specific issues to answer 
>> him.
>> This strikes me as one more example of us playing catch up with software
>> that isn't accessible in any meaningful way.  Is he right to drop the
>> course, or is the teacher being a grump?  Are there alternative ways to
>> demonstrate proficiency with the concepts but using different software as
>> Eric suggests?  The teacher says "My main concern is that this is a 
>> design
>> course, and as such it is a highly visual course. Some of the concerns I
>> have are documented in my earlier e-mail - in addition to that, there is 
>> a
>> module on creating Flash Video in the course and I am pretty sure that 
>> this
>> will be problematic, and I am not sure how Karl-Erik will be able to 
>> perform
>> tasks such as using an eyedropper tool to sample colours from an image 
>> when
>> developing a colour scheme for a website.."  Is that correct, or is it an
>> example of a sighted person believing lots of things are too visual for 
>> us
>> to grasp.  Would working with a reader help?  So many blind people don't
>> even consider that option these days.
>>
>> Sorry to hit you with these questions so close to convention.  I'd say 
>> leave
>> it until afterw Orlando, but then you have the Convention Roundup to 
>> write.
>>
>>
>> I thought you did a masterful job with the sad Oklahoma story.  Mike's a
>> very bright guy who cares a lot!  It's a shame that he self-destructed. 
>> The
>> entire June issue was good, as is true with the Monitor generally.
>>
>> Mary Ellen
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: karl-erik at Sonvisen.com [mailto:karl-erik at Sonvisen.com]
>> Sent: Monday, June 24, 2013 11:16 AM
>> To: list at cfb.ca
>> Subject: [List] Handling
>>
>>
>> As of May,  I'm enrolled this fall for a full course load, and while 
>> sorting
>> out textbooks, a teacher whom I've had before, emails the school's
>> disability resource center concerning their course's accessibility. To
>> summarize, this was one of the last lines in the email:
>>
>> Quote
>> : "I don't want to be faced with the highly time-consuming task of
>> recreating course materials and exams for a single use."
>> Unquote
>>
>> This is perhaps the most insulting thing I've ever heard, to me as a
>> disabled person, to all students, and to the school itself.
>>
>> The crux of the matter is that the course is a web design and maintenance
>> course using specific and very expensive software to achieve results that
>> I've known how to do since middle school using notepad. However, because 
>> of
>> the specific programs used, I'm not able to challenge the course without 
>> the
>> unfair disadvantage of not knowing those programs, even though I know how 
>> to
>> achieve the desired results perhaps/probably better than the other 
>> students.
>>
>> I understand this is a highly visual course, however, I'm not the one who
>> decided to make it mandatory for their bachelor program, and I'm not the 
>> one
>> who put it together using ninaccessible software. regardless, I will 
>> likely
>> end up seeking an alternative course simply to avoid this teacher.
>>
>> Anyways, I'd like to know if anyone has any other suggestions on handling
>> this? I've attached the teacher's previous emails for your perusal.
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Karl-Erik
>>
>> Most recent email:
>>
>> No I have no objection to you copying my e-mail and sending it to 
>> Karl-Erik.
>>
>> He took another course from me earlier (BUS 141), but this was a much 
>> less
>> visual course and this still seemed to present some problems for him.
>> Also, we had to rewrite all of our exams in BUS 140 as the screen reader 
>> was
>> unable to work with the Flash based simulations in MyITLab, which was 
>> very
>> time consuming for us as they were only used the one-time.
>>
>> My main concern is that this is a design course, and as such it is a 
>> highly
>> visual course. Some of the concerns I have are documented in my earlier
>> e-mail - in addition to that, there is a module on creating Flash Video 
>> in
>> the course and I am pretty sure that this will be problematic, and I am 
>> not
>> sure how Karl-Erik will be able to perform tasks such as using an 
>> eyedropper
>> tool to sample colours from an image when developing a colour scheme for 
>> a
>> website..
>>
>> In addition to my concerns about the highly visual nature of a design
>> course, there is also the issue of the Adobe Creative Suite software. We
>> have a limited set of licenses which are all in use in our dedicated lab 
>> as
>> the licenses are very expensive. The issue will be with exams for which 
>> we
>> cannot supply a license for DRC, or for Karl-Eric's personal use. We use
>> Adobe CS6 - I am not sure if this is available anymore as Adobe has 
>> replaced
>> it with a cloud based version (CS7) for which you have to pay a monthly 
>> fee.
>> We are staying with CS6 as we already have the licenses for it, but I am
>> unsure as to Adobe's policy about selling CS 6 - I know that you cannot 
>> buy
>> earlier versions of software from Microsoft for example. We also use a 
>> very
>> old version of ExamView for course quizzes and for part of the final exam
>> and I don't know if the screen reader software is capable of reading the
>> question and answer choices from this tool.
>>
>> While I fully support the work that DRC does to help students, and fully
>> support DRC students in my courses, I am very anxious about having a 
>> blind
>> student in a design course that relies so heavily on the visual aspects 
>> of
>> design, and I don't want to be faced with the highly time-consuming task 
>> of
>> recreating course materials and exams for a single use.
>>
>> It is for these reasons that I am wondering if another course would be a
>> more suitable choice for someone with Karl-Eric's specific disability.
>> End most recent email.
>>
>> Start first email, (sent to a DRC Counsellor):
>>
>> I wanted to check in with you before I answer Karl regarding the textbook
>> and software as I am wondering if a website design course is an 
>> appropriate
>> course for a blind student to take. The issue is that much of this course 
>> is
>> visual - we use graphic design software (Photoshop) to process 
>> photographs
>> (cropping, colour contrast, contrast and brightness, levels, and 
>> sharpening
>> for example), and we use Fireworks to develop website banners, buttons, 
>> and
>> filler graphics. These are all highly visual tasks. In addition, we use 
>> CSS
>> for page layout (Dreamweaver), and students must be able to see if they 
>> have
>> "column-drops" and other broken layout issues. I am not sure that screen
>> reader software is capable of supporting these tasks in the web design
>> environment.
>>
>> End first email.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>>
>>
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