[nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination Against Disabled

Fri Mar 11 19:26:54 UTC 2016

John,

First, let me be clear that since the law is what it is, we need to use it
to get what we need, and we need to be sure the law is enforced.  I am not
arguing against that.  The problem isn't whether an employer should spend
anything on us.  Rather, it is the effect of an employer knowing they will
have to spend a significant amount more than average on us and how that
affects how we are viewed in the hiring process.  

Let's take this out of dealing with blindness for a moment, though.  I know
my employer will purchase particular types of desk chairs for employees who
have back problems which are more expensive.  But if an employer had two
applicants equally qualified and one explained in advance that they would
need a special desk chair that was very expensive, on what basis would we
expect that the extra cost should somehow be ignored?  A person in such a
position would most likely not disclose this before being hired.  I think
our case is made more difficult when it can be shown that hiring us for
certain positions will cause extra initial or on-going costs.  It doesn't
make it right, but one can understand that it might affect the decision,
perhaps without the decision maker even being aware of it. 

It isn't just a fear of extra costs, either.  I've seen another instance
where a job used terminal emulation software that did not work well with
screen readers.  There are alternative packages that work better, and the
cost is not significant.  However, the job position is not a technical one
at all so an applicant is not going to be in a position to support the
alternative terminal emulator.  Therefore, the department would have to be
certain that there was someone who would learn the alternative package and
be aware of necessary updates.  This need has to be documented somehow so
when there are changes in staff that this gets passed on.  So once again, if
this issue is known before hiring, and hiring someone else avoids the
problem, they will probably take the easiest route.  

There are no real good answers to all this in today's environment.  It is
just another case where we are put at a disadvantage, not because of our
blindness directly, but because of the indirect affects.  One solution would
be to have more tax credits to help with some of the costs.  It wouldn't
answer everything, but it might minimize the problems some.  I understand
that in a few European countries, there is a sort of general fund created
and employers can apply for reimbursement, or at least that was the case
some years ago.  That might also be a useful approach.  

In some cases, we can do the jobs but it will cost more.  I believe, as I
have said before, that there is a general benefit to society for us to be
working as well as there being an obvious benefit to ourselves.  It doesn't
seem unreasonable to me, therefore, that there should be mechanisms in place
that would allow the extra costs associated with hiring disabled persons to
be shared across society broadly rather than concentrated on specific
employers who hire disabled persons.  Some kind of cost sharing would, to
some degree, remove some barriers to our getting hired. 

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G Heim via
nfbcs
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 9:37 AM
To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
Cc: John G Heim <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination Against
Disabled

But employers pick up the tab for employees equipment all the time. 
Imagine a sighted person getting hired at a company that made 
accessibility tools. Everybody else who works at the company is blind. 
They sit him down in front of a computer with no monitor, just a 
headset. He says, "I'm going to need a monitor." And the boss says, "Are 
you kidding? You expect me to go out and spend my own money on some 
stupid visual device just for you?"

On 03/11/2016 07:02 AM, Gary Wunder via nfbcs wrote:
> I have a reasonable understanding of the ADA when it comes to how
reasonable
> accommodation is interpreted, but I would argue for any client who pressed
> the state agency to provide the initial equipment for a job. It is one
thing
> to demonstrate to an employer that I have worth and then expect him to
pick
> up the same cost that he does for others, but I think it is a very
different
> thing for an employer who doesn't know me or much of anything about blind
> people to be told that I will need screen reading software, a notetaker,
and
> perhaps a scanner and some additional software. For the agency to drop the
> ball after carrying it 90% of the way seems foolish to me.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
> via nfbcs
> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 4:21 PM
> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
> Cc: Steve Jacobson; 'Tracy Carcione'
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination Against
> Disabled
>
> John,
>
> I think you raise some interesting points.  When I started working some
> forty years ago, it was common thought that the agency for the blind
> provided the equipment for a job.  Often this was a one-time thing, and of
> course that has changed.  However, particularly with the coming of ADA,
but
> even before that, it became the employer's responsibility to provide
needed
> equipment as a reasonable accommodation.  Whether it should be considered
or
> not, that makes us more expensive to hire for the same return, unless, as
> you say, we can convince an employer that we will produce more.  However,
I
> am somewhat uneasy with the concept that we produce more to justify our
> extra equipment because it may not be that easy to achieve.  A lot of our
> reasonable accommodation needs are really pretty small for a large
company,
> but they can be an "Undo burden" on a small company which is where many
jobs
> are.  Also, many large companies budget at a department level and one's
> equipment may need to be paid for by the department that does the hiring.
A
> small expense for a large company might be much more substantial at the
> department level.  come
>
> I don't claim to have answers, but I believe this problem needs to be
> considered.  Still, can one really claim discrimination if someone else is
> hired who does not have reasonable accommodation needs?  I know that some
> job applicants are told to iron out their reasonable accommodation needs
> right away, and there is a case to be made for that.  One needs to know if
> they can do the job for one thing.  But it really exposes one's hand, so
to
> speak, very early in the process.  Another employee who does not require
any
> reasonable accommodations but who had a family situation that causes them
to
> require time off, for example, won't reveal any of this until they have
been
> hired.  We need to look for answers to some of this as blind people
because
> we are the ones most effected.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G Heim via
> nfbcs
> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 10:51 AM
> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: John G Heim <jheim at math.wisc.edu>; Tracy Carcione
<carcione at access.net>
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination Against
> Disabled
>
> It'd be funny if it wasn't about putting bread on the table.
> Another thing in the comments that I think is of interest is that some
> people blasted the research study saying it was stupid to disclose that
you
> are disabled in the cover letter. But both of our examples show how futile
> it is to not disclose it.  You're going to end up at a lot of interviews
> where you have absolutely no chance at the job. There is always some
chance
> you'll wow the interviewer into giving you a chance, I suppose. Is it
worth
> it? Just my opinion but I don't think so. I think you are better off
weeding
> those people out in the first place.
>
> The last time I was applying for jobs, I made myself out to be Super Blind
> Guy in my cover letter. Of course, I didn't actually use that term in my
> cover letter but I made a point of emphasizing the things I could do. I
have
> competed in triathlonns, landscaped the front of my house, done a lot of
> woodworking. For what it's worth, it seemed to work.
>
> You know about Super Blind Guy, right? He and his faithful guide dog
> companion  go around righting wrongs with his razor sharp mind, super
> hearing, echo location, and super sensitive touch. "Ah ha!" says Super
Blind
> Guy, "I knew the bill was counterfeit because it was dated 1936 and Andrew
> Jackson didn't appear on the twenty until 1938."
> On 03/10/2016 10:10 AM, Tracy Carcione via nfbcs wrote:
>> I once interviewed for a job, taking a bus, a train, and walking
>> several blocks in Manhattan, only to find the interviewer could not be
>> convinced I wouldn't need someone to lead me to the bathroom.  Grrrr.
>> Tracy
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of John G Heim
>> via nfbcs
>> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 11:03 AM
>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>> Cc: John G Heim
>> Subject: [nfbcs] Fake Cover Letters Expose Discrimination Against
>> Disabled
>>
>>
>
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/11/02/upshot/fake-cover-letters-expose-discri
>> mination-against-disabled.html
>>
>> I think I have talked on this list about wanting to commission a study
>> similar to the one mentioned in this article except with a blind
>> applicant applying for IT jobs. The study has people with spinal
>> injuries and Asperger's Syndrome applying for accounting jobs. They
>> found disabled applicants were 26% less likely to get a call back. Of
>> particular interest are some of the comments.
>>
>> "Given two candidates of roughly equal qualifications the rational
> decision
>> would be to hire the one without disabilities. It's going to be less
>> expensive, on average . [...] So statistically, a disabled job
>> applicant would need to be sufficiently better qualified for the job
>> to overcome the disability to be the 'correct' choice."
>>
>> Long time readers of this list will know I've speculated about this
>> effect for years. My guess is that this factor is much greater for
>> blind
> applicants
>> than it is for the types of disabilities in the study. A blind person
> does,
>> in fact, have greater challenges to over come. But I suspect that even
> worse
>> is the lack of understanding about just how much a blind technologist
>> can do. A perspective employer once flatly refused to interview me
>> when she
> saw
>> that I was blind. She essentially accused me of faking my resume and
> simply
>> would not believe a blind person could use a computer.
>>
>>
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> --
> --
> John G. Heim; jheim at math.wisc.edu; sip://jheim@sip.linphone.org
>
>
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-- 
--
John G. Heim; jheim at math.wisc.edu; sip://jheim@sip.linphone.org

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