[Ohio-talk] Fwd: To the NFB haters on this list: was; Re: NFB Resolution

Sun Jul 13 16:26:06 UTC 2014

I was not able to attend the national convention this year, but
apparently, there was a resolution that Apple should make all Idevice
apps accessible.  This has generated a lot of discussion on the
viphone list and I thought I would share it with everyone.  I would
like to hear from people who attended the convention.  Did Ohio vote
to support this resolution?

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: erik burggraaf <erik at erik-burggraaf.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2014 12:13:35 -0400
Subject: Re: To the NFB haters on this list:  was;  Re: NFB Resolution
To: macvisionaries at googlegroups.com

Isn't the very point of the NFB to advocate?  IE, make change for the
better?  IE, make companies like apple do things they wouldn't
normally do by the use of resolution, discussion, policy positions and
demonstration of the user demand for such change?  THe NFB seems to me
to be doing what an advocacy organization does.  I don't understand
why any one has a problem with this.

Best,

Erik Burggraaf
The great amazon gift card giveaway begins friday june eleventh at 5
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On 2014-07-12, at 11:36 PM, "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler at tysdomain.com> wrote:

> I'm writing this from a sock-footed perspective, so take that for what it's worth...
> None of this is "hate" directed at NFB. I don't agree with their philosophy. I don't believe that one organization should have the power to "resolve" to make a company like Apple do anything. This isn't a matter of ACB vs NFB or AFB or anything, it's a matter of what I believe is right. I don't believe that an organization should speak for the entire blind population. Further, I don't believe that any organization should be so arrogant as to award a company, then expect them to show up, as if it's an honor to receive that award. I don't understand how NFB thinks it has the right to force this on anyone, much less why they're only targetting apple for this. I also don't understand what they hope to accomplish. Sure there are unaccessible apps out there, but that number is dwindling. Advocacy and work with the developers of the apps is generally plenty to make people want to make their applications accessible. Not always, but enforcing accessibility guidelines and forcing an entire OS to conform to those guidelines when it would probably mean changing the user experience for everyone else is also ludicrous.
>
> You brought up the 2009 article: why should we thank NFB for appologising for something they never should have published in the first place?
>
> I'm not sure where this will lead. I think that work with apple developers and perhaps work under the hood to the native controls would make more of a difference. Perhaps developers can choose to have these checks enabled, and these checks can insure that specific labels are set, etc etc which would generally make the app more accessible. This is also up to the developer, but it would greatly help I think in targetting exactly what needs to be done.
> On 7/12/2014 11:15 PM, Ray Foret Jr wrote:
>> Okay.
>>
>> I am changing the subject because I think it's high time I said something.  I well remember how many Mac users strongly criticized the NFB for their June 2009 Braille Monitor article on Voice Over.  That criticism was fully justified:  let there be no doubt about that.  On the other hand, how many Mac users gave the NFB credit for the retraction printed in the December 2009 Monitor article?  Not many I seem to recall.  Look, it's your business whether or not you hate the NFB and I cannot change your minds about that.  I'm not even going to try.  But, frankly, I think it's very shallow minded to have this kind of hatred controlling the issue when what we need to do is have a balanced and mature conversation.  Hate us all you want:  but, remember, there are NFB members who use Macs and iPHones and other Apple products too.  For what it may be worth, I do not hate anyone in the ACB.  Why should I?  They've never done anything to me to merit such hatred.  I would add this.  My own state, Louisiana, voted against the resolution at the convention this year.  This somewhat took me by surprise.  I did not expect that to happen, but it did.  Look, we who are NFB members and who use our Apple products love them as much as you do.  I know that, for myself, I will never touch windows again.  I'd sooner be without a computer totally than to do that.  I do not believe it is at all reasonable to ask the current generation to bear the hatreds of the past.  1961 is long gone:  as the hatred of those days should also be.  Condemn what I say if you wish:  (That's your right.):  but, just bear in mind that the only one being effected by your hatred of people like me is yourself.  I don't hate you.  You see, it's frightfully simple.  Those who hate you don't win unless you hate them.  Have what ever feelings you choose towards me and what I say:  but, bear in mind that we really need to rise above such things and continue to help each other with Apple product issues.  After all, is that not the principal purpose of this list?  When I first joined, I received much good help from the members of this list.  I would hate to depart from this list over feelings of bitterness and hatred with respect either to the ACB or NFB.  No.  I cannot change how you feel:  but, frankly, I'd prefer a gentler tone.
>> Sincerely,
>> the Constantly Barefooted Ray, Still a very happy Mac and iphone user!
>> Sent from my Mac, the only computer with full accessibility for the blind built-in!
>>
>> On Jul 12, 2014, at 9:57 PM, David Chittenden <dchittenden at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It is probably more like, NFB attempted to dialogue with Apple. Apple rebuffed NFB, like Apple rebuffs any organization doing something similar. NFB passes a resolution which they can then take back to Apple and say, See, the blind are behind us because we are the blind and this resolution was passed at our convention, so you really need to dialogue with us.
>>>
>>> What will be the result? Apple will again rebuff NFB, just like Apple rebuffs any organization attempting such an approach. NFB may well become in-sensed again and we will see some form of tantrum from NFB. As I recall, when Apple did not send an official representative to NFB National Convention to receive the awards NFB gave Apple, a few months later articles appeared in the Braille Monitor proving how horrible VoiceOver was on the Mac. Yes, I suspect NFB will do something just as idiotic this time when their scheme does not work yet again.
>>>
>>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>>> Email: dchittenden at gmail.com
>>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On 13 Jul 2014, at 13:57, Tristan <theblinddj360 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I feel the need to point out this article:
>>>> https://nfb.org/blog/vonb-blog/comments-apple-and-nfb-resolution-2014-12
>>>> This gives me a largely new prospective on this; I was really inclined
>>>> to agree with everyone's opinions on this at first, but it honestly
>>>> looks like they're trying to work with, and not threaten Apple at the
>>>> core of the resolution.
>>>> If this link has been posted prior, I apologize, but thought I'd share.
>>>> While I do think it's an unnecessary step, it does not look like a
>>>> slap in the face to apple nor a step backwards. It's something that I
>>>> personally wouldn't care about and probably wouldn't pay attention to,
>>>> because I'm comfortable with the way apps are handled on both Mac and
>>>> iOS.
>>>>
>>>>> On 7/12/14, Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> wrote:
>>>>> I cannot imagine it being about anything else but nfb getting money in
>>>>> exchange for building in limitations.
>>>>> Granted I make no secret of choosing my own dictionary.
>>>>> But why on earth in the 21st century is anyone still worshiping at the nfb
>>>>> altar anyway?
>>>>> So they pass a resolution...and?
>>>>> The only reason apple feels they must entertain them, is because other
>>>>> customers do not indicate they have minds imaginations and interests of
>>>>> their own.
>>>>> a bunch of people gave this organization power, those same people, who BTW
>>>>> have within  themselves the ability to write their own dictionaries about
>>>>> blindness and anything else, can tell  the nfb they have out grown the
>>>>> need for such a body anymore.
>>>>> I simply do not understand why one conformity is exchanged for another, one
>>>>>
>>>>> person's ideas of limitations exchanged for those the nfb create with
>>>>> their mindset.
>>>>> Kare
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Jul 2014, Littlefield, Tyler wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Karen:
>>>>>> I fully agree. It really does feel like we're slapping Apple in the face,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> forcing them to conform. I really really hope this doesn't work, because
>>>>>> it's
>>>>>> going to create a huge mess and totally redefine apps. Not everything is
>>>>>> accessible but that really is fine with me; usually I can find an app that
>>>>>>
>>>>>> is. It's what happens when you use anything, really. My thoughts are
>>>>>> mainly
>>>>>> money based: how much money will NFB get for consulting for something like
>>>>>>
>>>>>> this, and secondly how is this trash going to redefine apps on the iPhone?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's not going to be all that hard for NFB to use their power to force
>>>>>> things
>>>>>> into IOS/apps that don't need to be there, force things out, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 7/12/2014 9:25 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>>>>>> Let me see if I understand this.
>>>>>>> Apple who has built in innovation on its own must discuss with the nfb
>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>> to now limit that innovation to fit the nfb's one size fits all
>>>>>>> definition
>>>>>>> of blindness?  as in all blind people are interchangeable, and the nfb
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> the only source to  tell you how to find a plug and play blind person
>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>> which you measure what works for them...all 400 plus million of them?
>>>>>>> I wonder how much money they plan on extorting for this dialog?
>>>>>>> Not only should it be a blanket resolution, BTW android phones are the
>>>>>>> most popular in use now  according to annual surveys,  but this dialog
>>>>>>> should involve many organizations, and a group of apple customers who
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> not members of a consumer organization whatsoever.
>>>>>>> The very suggestion that a single body is in a position to speak for
>>>>>>> every
>>>>>>> child born of women who happens to have the label blind attached to
>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>> is a stereotypes that really needs to end. otherwise the individuality
>>>>>>> that is  the rich experience of redefining blindness is not going to
>>>>>>> exist
>>>>>>> for the millions who need not buy the nfb line to live freely and
>>>>>>> inclusively.
>>>>>>> Why does the nfb not spend its energy training software developers who
>>>>>>> fit
>>>>>>> their one size fits all blindness box?
>>>>>>> Many companies besides Apple would get the benefits that way.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> just my take,
>>>>>>> Karen
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Jul 2014, Pamela Francis wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>> I personally am not in favor of this resolution; not because I don't
>>>>>>>> want accessibility. Apple took the lead in making its products
>>>>>>>> accessible without government or organizational intervention.
>>>>>>>> Microsoft,
>>>>>>>> on the other hand, allowed third-party vendors to do its work within
>>>>>>>> accessibility. Google, though it has come along way, still does not
>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>> to adhere to its own standards unless it is pressed.
>>>>>>>> If there was a resolution to be had, it should've been a blanket
>>>>>>>> resolution for all companies dealing with accessibility. Picking on
>>>>>>>> Apple, is as if we as a blind community are slapping it in the face
>>>>>>>> given that it has continued its efforts to remain accessible. I
>>>>>>>> understand the need for utilitarian apps such as maps, transit maps,
>>>>>>>> notes, lists, etc. to remain accessible as they are a necessary
>>>>>>>> function
>>>>>>>> in normal life. However, just to use as an example I don't necessarily
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> need Angry Birds to be accessible for my benefit nor do I need it to
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> threatened to be kicked from the app store due to inaccessibility for
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the sake of millions of people who enjoy it.
>>>>>>>> As we continue to strive for accessibility in all areas, we need not
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> a bully to the company that went out of its way to make its products
>>>>>>>> accessible from the beginning.
>>>>>>>> We also do not need to be put into a societal box allowing electronics
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> manufacturers, appliance manufacturers, and the general public to
>>>>>>>> believe that all we are capable of is operating an iPhone. We are on
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> cusp of choice. We have fought for choice  for a long time. This type
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> a resolution makes us look  militant and  ungrateful. What is fair for
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> one company is fair for all.
>>>>>>>> Pam Francis
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Jul 12, 2014, at 9:28 AM, Terje Strømberg <terjestrmberg at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The NFB Resolution is very important for all blind and low vision all
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> over the world. We all want accessible digital future.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A link to a comment from the president in NFB:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://nfb.org/blog/vonb-blog/comments-apple-and-nfb-resolution-2014-12
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Take care
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Take care,
>>>>>> Ty
>>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>>>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> dares not reason is a slave.
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
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>
>
> --
> Take care,
> Ty
> http://tds-solutions.net
> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave.
>
> --
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> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
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-- 
Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
(513) 607-6053