[Quietcars] Hybrid Versus Full electric power.

Fri Dec 31 03:20:23 UTC 2010

Michael, I wonder who you are trusting to assure that none of those eight-year old  discarded batteries will not end up in landfills.  Also, I was not suggesting "lobbying" auto manufacturers, but rather, lobbying large-scale potential customers, to insist that vehicles they are ordering come with an audible feature.
I think you and I agree that the new legislation, if helpful to us, will not be helping any time soon.  In fact, I have to wonder if some manufacturers may just wait until the government tells them what must be done, instead of taking initiative now and risking marketing a product which might eventually be out of compliance.  Perhaps someone on this list can reassure me on this point.

--- On Sat, 12/18/10, michael townsend <mrtownsend at optonline.net> wrote:

From: michael townsend <mrtownsend at optonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Quietcars] Hybrid Versus Full electric power.
To: "'Discussion of new quiet cars and pedestrian safety'" <quietcars at nfbnet.org>
Date: Saturday, December 18, 2010, 8:19 PM

These are points I had considered, but the replacement of the batteries
shouldn't take place prior to an eight year warranty; but if they are
replaced, I am sure that precautions will be correctly observed.

The new governor of New York is indeed proposing these charging stations,
because most full electrics can't run more than 100 to 2245 miles.  In the
latter case,  
http://www.teslamotors.com/roadster
So it may be impractical for average commuters to run from home to work and
back without a charge.  

Lobbying car manufacturers is going to take some time, and from what I've
read, though people think that this is a great idea, there will be a tough
fight to organize and then implement this law across the board, for there
are so many different and proprietary circuits that one has to look into and
all kinds of
 legalities to sift through regard each manufacturer, for
example, with VW owning several prestigious car companies.  

Thanks, Ken.  Good work, and I'm glad that we can discuss this, as most
people don't even know the beginnings of what's up with the new bill and how
it might be tangled for years in getting implemented.,
Mike T

-----Original Message-----
From: quietcars-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:quietcars-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Ken Stewart
Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 7:28 PM
To: Discussion of new quiet cars and pedestrian safety
Subject: Re: [Quietcars] Hybrid Versus Full electric power.

I have two points to add, and
 then a suggestion; -New York's newly elected
governor is promoting the development of electric charging stations all
around the State.
-Some environmentalists are expressing concern about the problem of all
these batteries with very toxic chemicals, when they are eventually
discarded.
-I suggest that all advocates contact governmental entities, federal, state
and local, urging them to include a rrequirement for a sound feature in any
order they place for hybrid or electric vehicles.  They are major customers
and can motivate manufacturers.

--- On Sat, 12/18/10, michael townsend <mrtownsend at optonline.net> wrote:

From: michael townsend <mrtownsend at optonline.net>
Subject: [Quietcars] Hybrid Versus Full electric power.
To: quietcars at nfbnet.org
Date: Saturday, December 18, 2010, 3:35 PM

I am wondering what listers feel will be the end of this rainbow; hybrid v.
full electric?  

I have spoken to a radio host of a car show in New York today and had
expressed my concern with the passage of this quiet car bill, and he agrees
that everybody's got to have their due with this.  But, he feels that the
electric vehicle will win out in the end.  I do as well, but there are
certain things to be ironed out and a lot of room needs to be provided for
discussion.  

I have several observations that I would like to share.  I am not an
engineer or a developer, but
 a car enthusiast.  

I travel with a Seeing eye dog and don't much care for cane travel, though I
am fairly accurate with one.  

I think that a guide dog provides a safety net, if you will, when it comes
to working around hybrid or fully silent vehicles.  And that cannot  be
disputed, because guide dogs work on alerting to motion and speed.  And,
with the discussion pertaining to silent vehicles or more quiet vehicles,
most of the guide dog schools have a hybrid on the training venture, and
this tool is and has been used successfully in one particular school, Seeing
eye, for nearly four years, and quite successfully has been used to train
dogs and then the matched team with regard to this hybrid.  

I have long advocated that cane travel instructors, and blindness
organizations get in step and work with their constituents concerning the
quieter car, but I'm not sure that this
 has taken place, for their has been
little discussion on lists about this, that are not guide dog related, the
NFB quietcar list being  one such list.  

So, with that in mind, setting the stage for discussion, I offer these
points, if I may.  

First of all, the bill
mandates that there is to be a sound that cannot be turned off by drivers,
and as of yet, to my knowledge, that particular sounder has not been
proposed to be used by all manufacturers across the board.  

Secondly, automobile manufacturers from all companies need to allow this
sounder to be installed on their vehicles, even though there are proprietary
hardware and software issues that are going have to be ironed out.

I believe that the bill does clearly state the decibel level at which these
sounders may operate, but have peole actually been in an environment to see
whether these are too loud or too soft or
 recognizable at all over traffic
noise.  And, the particular sounder noise may determine whether this
loudness or softness is recognizable at all.

My last point here is that battery technology is not currently good enough
to allow for full electric use, in that the Chevy Volt, for example,  can
only go 35 miles on a full charge, and then has to be supplemented by a 1.4
four cylinder gasoline engine which provides propulsion.  The car has to be
charged at an overnight port, and when fully drained the battery takes ten
hours to charge at a 110 volt supply.  There are quicker charges available
from either a 220 or a 440 volt charge, but this shortens 5the life of the
very expensive battery pack, as will running the car down to its zero charge
point or having to bring the battery up to its 100 percent charge point.
These batteries are supposed to last eight years, though none of these
vehicles
 has been tested to equivalent numbers.

Batters are expensive and will have to be better developed for both longer
life and most cost effective implementation and installation in these
vehicles to keep things real.  $5000 for a replacement of a battery pack, in
a Chevy volt, and a much higher cost  in a european or exotic Japanese
designed vehicle, sure isn't going to suit the average person's wallet or
checkbook; but these batteries are supposed to last eight years, with a
warranty.  None of them has thus far, per a discussion I had heard on
another radio show that discusses cars.  Go to the Jay's Garage web site and
look at the discussion of the ford Escape hybrid for discussion of this
point.

The Nissan Leaf has a designed sounder that cannot be shut off, and it is
fully electric and can go further on full electric than the Volt, but has no
gasoline engine to propel the car after the
 battery dies, and the Leaf costs
nearly ten grand less in its base form.

The Volt has some sparse interior treatment and cheap plastics, according to
the auto writers, but it has been deemed the "car of the year" by a couple
of magazines.

Pricing for the Volt starts at 40 grand, minus a tax credit,  versus the
Leaf, which begins at a modest 32 grand, before tax credit.  

Though the passage of this silent car bill is a great thing, it's only t he
binning, because it was stated that it may take up to and over two years to
develop the sounder devices, do the testing and implement the results of the
studies.  But, let's keep involved and keep in touch with our particular
organizations who've crafted, lobbied for and then support the bill so that
we don't have something implemented that we truly cannot use.

Thanks.
Mike T in NJ with Brent

"I am accustomed to hearing
 malicious falsehoods about myself...but I think
I have a right to resent, to object to, libelous statements about my dog."
-Franklin D. Roosevelt
Mike Townsend and Seeing Eye dog Brent
Dunellen, New Jersey  08812
emails:  mrtownsend at optonline.net;
michael.townsend54 at gmail.com
Home Phone:  732  200-5643
Cellular:  732  718-9480

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