[rehab] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy concerning out of state services

Wed Apr 28 02:48:46 UTC 2010

Dick works for BLIND Inc.,  and is the former director of Minnesota 
State Services for the Blind.  He is a good guy -- I moved to 
Minnesota largely to work for him.  He is a sighted person who 
believes in blind persons more than many of us believe in ourselves!

Dave

At 05:40 PM 4/27/2010, you wrote:
>Dick, are you a councilor? or a Lawyer? You're shure teaching me 
>allot! Thanks for the info! RJ
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick Davis" <ddavis at blindinc.org>
>To: "'Rehabilitation Counselor Mailing List'" <rehab at nfbnet.org>
>Cc: "'Pamela Allen'" <pallen at lcb-ruston.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 5:50 PM
>Subject: Re: [rehab] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and 
>DBS's policy concerning out of state services
>
>
>>
>>RJ,
>>
>>One thing I left out is that you can write your own IPE (individualized plan
>>for employment) as long as you do it on agency forms.  You can get whoever
>>you want to assist you, not just your counselor.  Make sure you are
>>determined eligible for services first.  After completing it, sign it and
>>send it to your counselor with a cover letter asking him or her to approve
>>and sign it within a specified time frame, say two weeks.  Make sure to send
>>it by registered mail or hand deliver it and get a receipt.  That way they
>>can't say it never arrived.
>>
>>They have to respond.  They can either approve your IPE, refuse to approve
>>it, or contact you and try to make changes in it.  They can't just file it
>>away and ignore it.  If they do not respond within your specified time
>>frame, write them a more strongly worded letter.  If they still don't
>>respond, file an appeal, using as your reason that they failed to respond
>>after two attempts on your part.  Ask for mediation or a full evidentiary
>>hearing; don't accept an administrative review instead because
>>administrative reviews are not an appeal resolution method under federal
>>law.  Agencies like to use them to kill time, and often they're done by the
>>supervisor who helped make the decision in the first place.
>>
>>If you file an appeal, they have 60 days to resolve it, so the time pressure
>>will be on them. If you try mediation (which must be done by an independent
>>mediator with no connection with the agency) and it doesn't work out, you
>>can go right to the full evidentiary hearing (before a state administrative
>>law judge who also has no connection with the agency).  They have to hold
>>the hearing and give you a written ruling within the original 60 day time
>>period unless you grant them an extension in writing.  I wouldn't grant them
>>one unless there is a very good reason.
>>
>>Once you initiate an appeal, don't let them talk you out of it; if you back
>>down, they'll treat you any way they please. It's kind of a hardball
>>approach, but it works well, does wonders for your self-esteem, and teaches
>>them not to mess with you in the future.
>>
>>Dick Davis
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: rehab-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:rehab-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>Of RJ Sandefur
>>Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 1:52 PM
>>To: Rehabilitation Counselor Mailing List
>>Subject: Re: [rehab] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's
>>policy concerning out of state services
>>
>>Thanks for the help dick. RJ
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Dick Davis" <ddavis at blindinc.org>
>>To: <angel238 at sbcglobal.net>; "'Rehabilitation Counselor Mailing List'"
>><rehab at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 12:08 PM
>>Subject: Re: [rehab] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and DBS's
>>policy concerning out of state services
>>
>>
>>>Hi Everybody,
>>>
>>>I was at the Wisconsin convention over the weekend and didn't see this
>>>until today.  The instate preference, which is regulatory and not at
>>>all supported by the Rehab Act, was not intended to be used as it is
>>>by this agency.  A preference is just that, a preference, not a
>>>requirement.  They're treating it as a requirement.  They are
>>>operating within the law if they tell you they'd prefer you went to
>>>their center and require that you check it out before making a final
>>>decision.  They would even be within the law if they asked you to do
>>>the same with the Louisiana Center, although they should help pay for
>>>your travel costs if they make it a requirement.  But after being
>>>informed, if you choose to go to the Louisiana Center, then that
>>>choice is yours, not theirs.
>>>
>>>The regulations allow them to pay the cost of training at the
>>>Lighthouse if it is lower, assuming the Louisiana Center will agree to
>>>take it.
>>>However,
>>>there are lots of ways to get around that.  Are the two programs
>>>equivalent?
>>>Does the Lighthouse provide training seven days a week and 24 hours a day?
>>>Does it have supervised student apartments where you can learn to
>>>manage a place of your own and practice the skills you are learning in
>>>class?  Does it offer ten hours a week of mobility instruction, five
>>>hours a week of computers, five hours of Braille, ten hours of home
>>management, etc.?
>>>(Check
>>>with the Louisiana Center to make sure these figures are correct.)
>>>Does it offer job seeking skills training, career exploration and
>>>planning, and assistance in finding employment?  If not, the two
>>>programs are not equivalent, and there is no justification for paying
>>>the same amount for both.
>>>
>>>Pam Allen can provide you with the Louisiana Center information, and
>>>somebody at the Lighthouse should be able to provide you with their
>>>equivalents. Just collect the information, compare it, and submit a
>>>written request justifying your decision and asking to attend the
>>>center of your choice.  But you need to apply for services with your
>>>state agency and be determined eligible first.  If you aren't a client
>>>of theirs, they have no obligation to make any kind of commitment to
>>>you.
>>>
>>>Dick
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: rehab-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:rehab-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>Behalf Of angel238 at sbcglobal.net
>>>Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 3:57 AM
>>>To: Rehabilitation Counselor Mailing List
>>>Subject: Re: [rehab] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and
>>>DBS's policy concerning out of state services
>>>
>>>I was told that same thing 41 years ago.  My mobility instructor never
>>>completed the course of training for me because I wasn't able,
>>>according to him, to walk a straight line.  He encouraged me to get a
>>>guide dog.  I say, if it happened then, it could well happen to day.
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "RJ Sandefur" <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
>>>To: "Rehabilitation Counselor Mailing List" <rehab at nfbnet.org>
>>>Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 12:52 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [rehab] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and
>>>DBS's policy concerning out of state services
>>>
>>>
>>>>Won, As a mobility instructor, Have you ever heard of a person being
>>>>denied mobility training do to some one's balance? Or have you ever
>>>>heard of a person being told that mobility was being discontinued
>>>>because they were unable to walk in a straight line? I have mild
>>>>cerebal paulsy, and I was told these things. But my mobility teacher
>>>>from high school said that what I was told was a bunch of hogwash! RJ
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: "Haro, Juan, CFB" <Juan.Haro at state.nm.us>
>>>>To: "Rehabilitation Counselor Mailing List" <rehab at nfbnet.org>
>>>>Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 11:49 AM
>>>>Subject: Re: [rehab] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and
>>>>DBS's policy concerning out of state services
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Hello RJ:
>>>>
>>>>NBPCB stands for National Blindness Professional Certification Board.
>>>>The web site is nbpcb.org.  The only centers that are certified are
>>>>the three NFB centers Louisiana, Colorado, and BLIND Inc.; and three
>>>>state agencies New Mexico, Nebraska, and Hawaii.  The certification
>>>>indicates that the training you receive from these training centers
>>>>follow a non-visual approach with high expectations.
>>>>
>>>>Juan F. Haro, M.A., NOMCT
>>>>Cane Travel Instructor
>>>>Commission for the Blind
>>>>408 N. White Sands Blvd.
>>>>Alamogordo, NM 88310
>>>>Phone: (575) 437-0401
>>>>Email: juan.haro at state.nm.us
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: rehab-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:rehab-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>Behalf Of RJ Sandefur
>>>>Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 8:51 AM
>>>>To: Rehabilitation Counselor Mailing List
>>>>Subject: Re: [rehab] Fw: questions concerning informed choice,and
>>>>DBS's policy concerning out of state services
>>>>
>>>>What is Nbpcb? RJ
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: "Lansaw,Jane (DARS)" <Jane.Lansaw at dars.state.tx.us>
>>>>To: "Rehabilitation Counselor Mailing List" <rehab at nfbnet.org>
>>>>Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 8:27 AM
>>>>Subject: Re: [rehab] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and
>>>>DBS's policy concerning out of state services
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Hi RJ,
>>>>>I wonder if you can use LCB's NBPCB certification as a justification.
>>>>>I assume the Lighthouse isn't certified by NBPCB.  Dave can probably
>>>>>answer this question or maybe Dick Davis if he's watching.  Also, RJ,
>>>>>if you have any vision at all, even light perception you can cite
>>>>>LCB's complete non-visual training as a method you respect and feel
>>>>>you need to be fully employment-ready.
>>>>>
>>>>>I got my home state to send me to Colorado even though I had already
>>>>>been through Lion's World several years previously.
>>>>>
>>>>>Good Luck,
>>>>>
>>>>>Jane
>>>>>
>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>From: rehab-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:rehab-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>Behalf Of David Andrews
>>>>>Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 9:59 PM
>>>>>To: Rehabilitation Counselor Mailing List
>>>>>Subject: Re: [rehab] Fw: questions concerning informed choice, and
>>>>>DBS's policy concerning out of state services
>>>>>
>>>>>If they reopen your case, then you will end up with an employment
>>>>>goal, and a plan to reach that goal.  You will have to show how LCB
>>>>>will help you attain that goal, and why those resources available to
>>>>>you in Florida will not do so.
>>>>>
>>>>>Dave
>>>>>
>>>>>At 07:01 PM 4/24/2010, you wrote:
>>>>>>Dear List, I'm thinking about re-opening my case with DBS, and I
>>>>>>recieved this email from them, but I do not wish to recieve my
>>>>>>ajustment to blindness training through the lighthouse. I wish to go
>>>>>>to LCB. How can I justify this? RJ
>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>From: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>>>>>To: RJ Sandefur
>>>>>>Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:51 AM
>>>>>>Subject: RE: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>>>>>concerning out of state services
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Mr. Sandefur, please accept my condolence to you on the lost of your
>>>>>>mother.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If you need some adjustment to blindness training at this time, we
>>>>>>can reopen your file and refer you the Lighthouse for the Blind of
>>>>>>the Palm Beaches at this time for training.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I am also attaching a copy the Division's policy on Informed Choice
>>>>>>to help you in making your decision about training.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I know you are aware of the DBS policy on Out-State-Services, because
>>>>>>you attached it to your e-mail.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In order to assist you with training services, please call our office
>>>>>>and ask to have your case reopen for services at 561-681-2448 or
>>>>>>866-225-0794.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Bobbie Howard-Davis
>>>>>>
>>>>>>District Administrator
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>-----------
>>>>>>From: RJ Sandefur [mailto:joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com]
>>>>>>Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:09 AM
>>>>>>To: Howard-Davis, Bobbie
>>>>>>Subject: questions concerning informed choice, and DBS's policy
>>>>>>concerning out of state services
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Dear Mrs. Davis, My name is Robert Sandefur, I have some questions
>>>>>>for you concerning my right to informed choice, and the DBS policy
>>>>>>concerning out of state services. In 1999, I attended the
>>>>>>rehabilitation center, which is now the orientation and adjustment
>>>>>>center, and did not find the experience to be a pleasant one. In
>>>>>>2004, I closed my case with DBS, due to a disagreement with my
>>>>>>councilor at the time. However, due to having recently lost my
>>>>>>mother, and other factors, I believe I am in need of some adjustment
>>>>>>to blindness training, and this training should be conducted at the
>>>>>>Louisiana center for the blind. (LCB) I was looking at the DBS web
>>>>>>sight and came across the policy concerning out of state services:
>>>>>>Out of State Services
>>>>>>DIVISION POLICY 6.14
>>>>>>
>>>>>>SUBJECT
>>>>>>Out of State Services
>>>>>>
>>>>>>EFFECTIVE DATE
>>>>>>July 9, 2003
>>>>>>
>>>>>>REVISION DATE
>>>>>>February 14, 2008
>>>>>>
>>>>>>EXPIRATION DATE
>>>>>>This policy will be reviewed annually and updated as needed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>PURPOSE
>>>>>>
>>>>>>To provide guidelines for the provision of out-of-state services.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>AUTHORITY
>>>>>>34 CFR 361.50(b)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>POLICY
>>>>>>The Florida Division of Blind Services has established a preference
>>>>>>for in-State services, provided that the preference does not
>>>>>>effectively deny an individual a necessary service. If the individual
>>>>>>chooses an out-of-State service at a higher cost than an in-State
>>>>>>service, and either service would meet the individual's
>>>>>>rehabilitation needs, the designated State unit is not responsible
>>>>>>for those costs in excess of the cost of the in-State service.
>>>>>>However, if the out-of-state services provides a unique service to
>>>>>>meet the individual's rehabilitation plan, the Bureau Chief should be
>>>>>>contacted to approve or disapproval such a service.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Original signed by Michael Elliott, Bureau Chief, February 14, 2008
>>>>>>But compare this with a directive from RSA. policy as stated in 2001
>>>>>>in RSA PD-01-03:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       POLICY STATEMENT:  The State VR program must provide
>>>>>>applicants and individuals eligible for VR services with
>>>>>>opportunities to exercise informed choice throughout the VR process,
>>>>>>including making decisions about the employment goal, VR services,
>>>>>>service providers, settings for employment and service provision, and
>>>>>>methods for procuring services.  To enable an individual to make such
>>>>>>decisions, the State VR agency must provide information, support and
>>>>>>assistance needed by the individual.  The VR agency has the
>>>>>>responsibility to implement policies, procedures, and practices, and
>>>>>>to develop resources that enable applicants and individuals eligible
>>>>>>for VR services to exercise informed choice throughout the entire VR
>>>>>>process; these policies, procedures, and practices must be consistent
>>>>>>with Federal statutory and regulatory requirements. Mrs. Davis, Does
>>>>>>this mean, that DBS can tell me, "RJ, we're denying your request to
>>>>>>attend LCB, due to causts?" I do realize I'd have to open a new case
>>>>>>with DBS, since the previous one was closed in 2004. For your
>>>>>>convience, I've attached a document explaining what LCB is, although
>>>>>>I'm shure you know who they are. Mrs. Davis, This is only an inquiry,
>>>>>>and I wish to get my facts so that I'll be able to have enough
>>>>>>information in order to make an informed choice as to where to go
>>>>>>from here. I did study with a Seminary, and obtain my master of
>>>>>>theology, in 2006, and I was licensed by my church to preach in 2005.
>>>>>>It was tough loosing Mom, and I know, she'd want me to continue doing
>>>>>>what I believe the Lord has called me to do. However, How am I going
>>>>>>to be an effective minister, if I don't have the blindness training,
>>>>>>needed to sirvive? Another concern I have, is I have learned some
>>>>>>ministers start out as by-vocational. In 2004, until now, I didn't
>>>>>>see that aspect of it. I have a batchors degree in criminal justice.
>>>>>>Another not so wise disision on my part. Mrs.
>>>>>>Davis, I look forward to your answer. Sencerly, Robert Sandefur