[stylist] FW: keeping poems, for Robert, Bridgit, Lynda, and Barbara, others

Sat Jun 13 16:35:56 UTC 2015

Lynda and others,

Yes, I agree with you completely. Regardless of age and situation, I think people need to ask themselves, "What am I getting out of this behavior? Is this how I want to be perceived and conduct my life?" I also believe we have a responsibility to be the best we can be no matter the endeavor. I have never understood why people want to behave certain ways, especially when negative, and then post it for the world to see. Even in my 20's, I was not a drinker or party girl. I took my employment seriously, and this is probably why I have been promoted to supervisory and management positions in every job I have had since a teen. I believe in conducting yourself a certain way, regardless of the situation.

Having said all this, whether I agree with the behavior or not, I still do not think employers should be able to use social media as a means in which to learn about prospective employees or to use as a reason for firing employees if they find pictures and comments posted an employer does not like. If a teacher wants to go out on the weekend and get drunk, that's their right. I may think this behavior a bit indulgent for a person who is supposed to be molding a student's mind, but as long as they are not drinking at work or alcohol is not causing a problem affecting their job, an employer should have no say. If an employee wants to blow off some steam after hours and complain about their job or boss, that should be their right. I may not agree with displaying your employer in a negative light and may find it irresponsible, but as long as the comments are not illegal or accusatory, claiming work-place harassment or something, an employer should have no right to use what happens in a person's private life as a reason for firing or writing-up.

I'm not big on social media in general. I'm rarely on my accounts, and I often wonder why people post some of the stuff they do. Nonetheless, private life is private life. Yes, sharing on social media begs the question, "Is it really a private life? when shared online?" But there's a difference between private and your private life. Quite frankly, from a legal standpoint, some people may have cause to sue if fired because of what they share on social media. As long as it's not illegal and/or affecting the person's ability to work, there's not much of a precedence for firing. But my opinion is that social media should not be a tool for employers to use against prospective and current employees.

Bridgit

-----Original Message-----
From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Lynda Lambert via stylist
Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2015 10:59 AM
To: Writers' Division Mailing List
Cc: Lynda Lambert
Subject: Re: [stylist] FW: keeping poems, for Robert, Bridgit, Lynda, and Barbara, others

wow, Bridgit, you sure have a first hand experience with this dilemma through your sister.  That situation is too bad for her and sorry it happened to her.  It would be hard to recover after this kind of situation because it could certainly keep her from other employment in the future.  I hope this helps her see her role in the community in a new way.

In my world, to have a job is an honor - I believe in the integrity and privilege of holding a job.  I think work is very good for us as humans, and it is a vocation or calling and much more than a paycheck or putting in some hours each week.  Parker Palmer has written a number of excellent books on 
the value of work. in our lives.   I have loved all my positions and all the 
small jobs I did over the years as I matured. For each of them, I believed in working as though I personally owned  the company so it would never enter my mind to speak ill of the company, the employers, or the other folks who I worked with.  My husband never had to listen to me speaking negatively about the school or my students - it just never happened.  It is called collegiality and our tenure track  positions depend on being able to be  a positive part of the programs.  I hear from many of my former students and I am able to see their development in their field of study, so I know integrity and honor in the work place and personal life exists yet today - young people still have a commitment to being the change that makes the world a better place to live, as Gandhi asked us to be. I see education as teaching us all  how to be a servant leader. 
There are so many fine examples of people who have lived in this way and they have truly become the change that changes the world - one by one.  For social media, it's good to ask, "Will this thought I am going to write lead me to where I want to be?  Weill what I write today take me to a good place?"  Lynda

From: Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter via stylist
Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2015 11:04 AM
To: 'Writers' Division Mailing List'
Cc: Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter
Subject: Re: [stylist] FW: keeping poems, for Robert, Bridgit, Lynda,and Barbara, others

I think employers should not be allowed to search social media when hiring or to keep an eye on current employees. As long as you are doing your job and not bringing illegal or unethical practices to work, it should not matter what you do in your private life. Yes, there is the potential for a lot of grey area here, for example, a pastor out posting pictures of themselves doing illegal things, or a school bus driver posting comments about breaking speed limits. But again, social media should not be a hunting ground for employees or a means in which to low-jack employees. If a concern is had about an employee, actions can be taken to investigate, but for the most part, what a person does in private, whether shared on social media or not, should have no bearing on their job, unless completely illegal. 
However, this does happen. My sister was fired from a job because she put up negative comments about her boss on Facebook. Since this is currently allowed, yes, I would be very careful about what you post since you never know who will see it or what they will do with certain information.

Bridgit

-----Original Message-----
From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Lynda Lambert via stylist
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 2:30 PM
To: Writers' Division Mailing List
Cc: Lynda Lambert
Subject: Re: [stylist] FW: keeping poems, for Robert, Bridgit, Lynda, and Barbara, others

Jackie, and all,
I met a woman last week who works for a large corporation in KY - she told me they hired someone to work full time at this corporation just to troll the internet and read face book postings by the employees - she said they have fired many people due to internet comments, photos, etc.
If you Google Search your name, you may be surprised what comes up if you are on the internet very much - comments from blogs and Face Book, etc.
I would think that an editor or publisher would definitely do a search to see whats "out there" by and from an author they consider for publication.
It would be really disappointing to be passed by because you posted something without thinking of the possibilities ahead.

My daughter is a teacher and she has had fellow teachers lose their jobs just because they posted vacation photos, with liquor in their hands - my daughter does not do FB at all any more because of what could happen is someone wrote something on her page, or if someone would not like a comment she has made...

There is no such thing as privacy on the internet - really. Things get hacked all the time and you never know who would copy/paste your work or send it to anyone else regardless of rules.

I don't know anything about judges or contests - but I trust people to be fair if they are in that role - typically anyone selected as a judge would be well qualified for it otherwise there would be no point to it.
I have judged many things and certainly looked at each entry for what it was without thought of who may have created the piece. I think any other judge would be impartial as well in this kind of situation.  Here's to a good say of writing.  Lynda

-----Original Message-----
From: Jackie Williams via stylist
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 12:43 PM
To: 'Writers' Division Mailing List'
Cc: Jackie Williams
Subject: Re: [stylist] FW: keeping poems, for Robert, Bridgit, Lynda,and Barbara, others

Lynda, Bridgit, and those mentioned above.

Thanks so much for your comprehensive responses. I did not know that Google would have such detail about a person, or that Facebook was fair game.
Several responses above indicate that this list is safe. But here is a very specific instance of my question.
A while ago I posted a flash fiction piece, something I had never written before. I was overjoyed with the response, and particularly from Robert, who said he was sending it to the Nebraska group because he thought they would enjoy it.
It was a definite ego-booster. But on reflection, I feel I can never submit it, because I do not know if that group is a list like ours, or who there might have shared it outside their group. I never got any feedback from anyone outside this group.
And so, a short short career in fiction writing. Or should I take a chance and submit it elsewhere? Also, when you have put something on this list for a critique or comment, can you then legitimately send it to the NFB contest?
The judges would know who wrote it, and that is strictly against any rules I know about.

Jackie Lee

Time is the school in which we learn.
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz

-----Original Message-----
From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Lynda Lambert via stylist
Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2015 3:20 PM
To: Writers' Division Mailing List
Cc: Lynda Lambert
Subject: Re: [stylist] FW: keeping poems

Jackie's point is certainly a good one - for those of us who work with publishers and journals, we cannot post our work for many publications will not accept anything that has been published previously anywhere at all - even on your own Facebook page. That is a sobering fact, and it comes back to bite  us if we do it and we would  lose credibility with the publishers who work with us.  I do not enter contests much at all - only two in a year, because I am in the groups, so that is not my concern.  But I do want to continue to have my work appear in publications where I am paid for my  work and would never consider sending the editors  anything that was published anywhere else unless it is specified in the rules for Submissions that it is ok to do so. My interest and expertise is in essays and poetry - so that is what I choose to comment on typically in the group.  Just keeping up with my own work keeps me hopping.  This all works exactly like  gallery and museum art exhibitions - the higher quality exhibition venues  will not show work that has appeared an any other shows unless it is part of a traveling exhibition and in that case the entire show travels all over the states and abroad with the show.  - the best galleries want exclusive rights.  This is all fascinating, isn't it!

Another good point is that things we write and post on the internet, even in groups, is often available when you do a google search on that person and their work.  Particularly anything you have put on Facebook - even if you delete, it is still available through google search.  I have to ask myself, "Is it worth being banned from a publication because of something I posted on the internet in the past?"  It's a no-brainer, isn't it! If in doubt - don't do it. Lynda

-----Original Message-----
From: Jackie Williams via stylist
Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2015 5:21 PM
To: 'Writers' Division Mailing List'
Cc: Jackie Williams
Subject: [stylist] FW: keeping poems

Barbara, and all, a response that I wanted all to get and respond to.

Jackie Lee

Time is the school in which we learn.
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz

-----Original Message-----
From: Jackie Williams [mailto:jackieleepoet at cox.net]
Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2015 7:53 AM
To: 'Barbara Hammel'
Subject: RE: keeping poems

Barbara,
Your point is well taken. There might be a subtle difference between my critique group and this list, this being electronic, and the other hard copies.
This was addressed some time ago by Bridgit and Robert, that this list is a group meant for critiquing and sharing, and a contest should not disqualify a poem because it is posted here. I agree it should not, however recently a poem was disqualified because the National Federation of State Poetry Societies found it somewhere on the internet. Searches are pretty comprehensive these days I am told.
I have also collected some of the poems from members here, particularly when they introduce a new form, like Myrna with her tumbling tercets and cascading quatrains, and your  poem about seeing letters and certain things in colors which describes a certain eye condition I can never remember the name for. Also, things like Lynda's relating of her strategy for writing that 39 line poem with the same six words repeated in six stanzas in a prescribed manner, with another 3 lines at the bottom. I describe this because my memory for the word for certain forms sometimes escapes me now.
It always comes back, but not when I need it.
It is not that I do not trust the ones on this list, but that contests are pretty specific about not publishing or putting your work on anything if you are submitting it to them, unless they say you may have simultaneous submissions. I have approximately fifty poems in submission at this moment, and I do not want to risk jeopardizing them.
Also, on a personal level, I have shared my long manuscript with its added "A Battered Woman's Glossary, A Ludicrous Lexicon of Legal terms, with seven different critiquers. With their critique, " five returned the manuscript plus the Glossary, and two kept the Glossary saying they wanted to show it to someone, and whoever they shared it with never returned it.
This manuscript has been submitted to10 contests in the past, and I am always afraid that I will get a notice that that Glossary is someone else's.
As poets, we are encouraged to save favorite lines, or favorite poems, and even to make "erasure" poems from then, where you can erase half of that persons poem, rework the rest, and claim it as your own, being sure to give credit to the original poet. But already, some of these are being legally challenged.
The pace of change in copywrite laws is moving and getting much more complicated by the internet. I wish it were not so. And the argument by many is that there is nothing that has not been said before, so they should be able to use anything that has been used before, thus evading the law.
In the meantime, I agree that so many submissions here are worthy of saving primarily as teaching tools for methodology, or form, or for examples of creative use of language.
I hope this mixed message makes sense to you.

Jackie Lee

Time is the school in which we learn.
Time is the fire in which we burn.
Delmore Schwartz

-----Original Message-----
From: Barbara Hammel [mailto:poetlori8 at icloud.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2015 1:30 PM
To: jackieleepoet at cox.net
Subject: keeping poems

If one has no intent of ever sharing another's poem without their permission is it so bad to keep them? I have your A Rainbow Came Down poem — probably not your final copy — because I liked it. Will anyone ever know I have it?
No except that it's one by you. Would I ever print it or give to anyone without asking you? No.
I have five or seven of Myrna's, too. If a book were out that had all of them, I'd probably buy it for the final printed versions of them. Guess I don't make a competitive or smart writer, huh. Oh, and I'd NEVER claim another's work as my own.
Barbara
Sent from my iPhone

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