[stylist] Writing Software (Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter)

Wed Jun 15 18:04:58 UTC 2016

April,

First, let me reiterate that I definitely see benefits in Scrivener and want
to explore more. I'm really glad we are having this discussion, grin.

I definitely agree writers are submitting manuscripts full of errors,
including chapters and sections out of order. My point is that if you are
double checking work then employing a good editor to check your work, it's
not as likely to happen. Since this discussion started, I reached out to
some of my writer friends who use and submit with a word processor, and none
of them, who have responded, have had this problem with inconsistent
formatting or out of order chapters. And not to say that things can't happen
when editing or copying and pasting, but again, when double checking the
work, especially with an editor, it's less likely to happen.

And FYI, when working with separate files I intend to place into one single
document, after copying and pasting, I go through and double check
everything is in order in addition to having someone else do it.

Hmmm... Maybe someone else can comment on this, but I've never had a problem
with pages and JAWS. Maybe I'm not fully understanding what you mean because
I can't recall JAWS ever getting stuck after the first page in Word. I just
edited a friend's 178-page story, and not only was all her formatting and
chapters in order, but JAWS did not have problems reading one page to the
next. Others may have experienced this problem, but personally, I have yet
too. This doesn't mean a problem doesn't exist, but I have yet to notice it.

I've never used Styles usage, and it sounds like something I need to look
into, but again, not saying it doesn't happen or isn't a problem, but I have
not had a problem with selecting all text or any text and manually making
font and formatting changes and not had it do what it states it's doing.
During this past semester of grad school, I turned in up to 40 pages of
creative writing every four weeks, and I never had an issue with the
formatting turning out different from what I thought it was. And yes, I do
have sighted people looking at my work too. I didn't experience this either
when I wrote for a local newspaper or the publications I edited. I'm one
person, and by no means a Word or JAWS expert, but in my individual
experience, I've not had problems manually selecting and changing font and
formatting. But again, I'm intrigued by this Styles usage feature and will
look into it.

Another problem I've never had is Microsoft rearranging the order of folders
and files. In all my years of school, work and writing, I've never
experienced this either. For my MFA, for instance, I have a MFA folder that
contains folders for creative writing, critical work, articles, etc.
Individual files are nested within each respective folder. Similar to a
folder I have for my NFB chapter and affiliate, PR work, etc. I can locate
folders and files simply by pressing the first letter or number of the file
name, or of course, up and down arrowing. I can also change file extensions
and change from RTF or PDF, if I need. None of this has been tedious to
navigate through, and never has MS switched my order of folders and files.
Scrivener does sound like it has a great organizational system, which I
love, but from what I can tell based on comments on Stylist, I don't know
that Scrivener is better or worse, just a different filing method than Word.
But again, I need to actually look at the program before knowing that for
sure.

In my MFA, all my peers and our faculty, who are all published, use Word or
the Mac word processor. All our documents are expected to be turned in as a
Word or Rtf document. This is one tiny pool of writers and no way represents
the vast amount of writers in the world, but Stylist is the first time I've
heard of Scrivener or similar programs. I think Word is still the preferred
method for writing, but sounds like Scrivener is growing in popularity.

I switched from using a computer and MS Office with sight to being blind 12
years ago. I was fully sighted, no expectation for losing my sight, and yet
I did. Once I learned JAWS and how to navigate nonvisually on the computer,
my computer skills have actually developed, and I'm far better with the
computer now than when I was sighted, grin. Keep in mind, I'm still not tech
savvy, but nonetheless, I can do so much more now than I could sighted, LOL!

We all have different methods and learn in different ways. Due to a mild
nerve condition, reading Braille is tedious and I don't use it much outside
of labels around my home or jotting down short notes. I can write it with no
problem, but reading it is a long, tedious process for me. So I'm jealous
that you have the ability to use a Braille display. I would love to read
Braille well enough to do it regularly. That's an amazing skill to have.

When I went back to get my second degree and was now doing things
nonvisually, I won't lie, it took me an entire semester to adjust to
learning primarily audibly. Braille would have been very beneficial, but I
adjusted, and I kept up with my work just as well as I did sighted. I've
learned to write and edit using JAWS, which I don't recommend if you have
the Braille skills, but it can and does work. And I'm now asked to do a lot
of freelance story and copy editing.

My point is that different strokes for different folks, smile. I'm in no way
suggesting Word is superior to Scrivener or the other way around. And if I
ever try Scrivener out, I may prefer it, but I still think it's not so much
because one system works and one doesn't, but each has their respective
benefits, but ultimately, it's just two different ways of accomplishing the
same things.

But I appreciate all your comments and info on Scrivener. I am interested to
learn more and see how it compares to Word.

Bridgit

-----Original Message-----
From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of April Brown
via stylist
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 11:44 AM
To: stylist at nfbnet.org
Cc: April Brown <aprilbrownshade at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [stylist] Writing Software (Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter)

Hello Bridgit,

    I've never had any luck with screen readers, until I learned to use my
braille display with VoiceOver. 

     Many new screen reader users complain about the issue of them getting
stuck in writing programs - particularly Pages.  VoiceOver may not read
beyond the first page.  Part of it may be a settings issue that is not
apparent to new users.  I know it sticks on me as well.

     I've heard countless editors and agents comment on Twitter how Chapter
10 was in the document before Chapter 9.  And the writer responded that they
kept each chapter separate, and copied and pasted it into a full document
long after completing the novel.  It happens.  Agents and editors do tell
writers to keep all of the document within the document, not as separate
documents.  The only exception is a set of first three chapters to send to
agents who ask for only that.  Otherwise, the writer is making more work for
themselves, the editor, and the formatter.

    And um.  As for selecting all and changing font style, size, etc...  We
aren't supposed to that anymore.  We are supposed to use style that either
we create, or our program creates, so that inconsistencies don't occur.
Your screen reader may read the text as Arial 12, and it may say that on the
screen, and yet, you can visibly tell it isn't.  Styles usage fix that
problem.  If we use the inbuilt styles - it is supposed to make it easier
for screen readers and  formatting programs to format for ebook properly.

       Most of my writer friends are literary as well, and have moved to
Scrivener in the last few years.  Except the picture book writers of course.

       While still sighted, I could have nested folders within nested
folders, within nested folders, and it worked well for me.  All my writing
at my fingertips.

      Then, I needed help.  Scrivener gives me options to easily export to
any file type I want.  I can have the chapters separated in the sidebar, and
easily re-arrange them, using the "move-to" command in the menu if needed.
All research - webpages linked and viewable, cover photos, pictures, maps,
and other things that tend to disappear if left in files are at the click of
a button.  And within the project, some advocates have even begun keeping
their marketing materials, marketing pages that include sales links, and
ISNBs, as well as blog posts. All accessible in a table on the left hand
side.   Neat and organized.

       I didn't want to spend the money on it.  I wouldn't have, if I hadn't
lost my vision.  If I didn't have it, I would have had to give up writing,
as I could find my files, no matter how well organized they wore - Microsoft
kept changing the order I would save things in in folders.

       If your system works for you, that's fine.

       I wish I were still sighted enough that I didn't need it!

April Brown

Writing dramatic adventure novels uncovering the myths we hide behind.

aprilbrownshade at gmail.com

Website: https://sites.google.com/site/uncoveredmyths/
Twitter: http://twitter.com/UncoveredMyths Google Plus:
https://plus.google.com/116003267969710767555/posts
> 

[stylist] Writing Software

Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter bkpollpeter at gmail.com
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Wed Jun 15 16:20:04 UTC 2016

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April,

What document programs don't work with screenreaders? Does this happen with
Scribner? Do you mean in general, or with large bodies of text?

Mistakes do happen, that's just a part of being human. And often, errors
occur even when we try our best, but I've yet to have a full manuscript be
submitted that was not consistent with formatting. Whether school, when I
was writing for the Omaha World Herald, PR work or personal writing I've
submitted. Not to say my work is never without errors, but I've never had
inconsistencies in the text and formatting, and I've definitely not had
sections out of order.

With Word, before sending a document to an editor, you can select all text
and change font, sentence and paragraph spacing, set margins, etc. And you
can double check all this throughout a document. There are commands and
features you can utilize to check all work.

When I was editing magazines, material wasn't always submitted in the same
font or formatting. I would automatically select all text, put it back to
default settings then change font and spacing or add headings, bold or
italicize, set margins, etc. as needed before placing into one large
document. It's the same for my personal work. And all the formatting and
text can be checked with Word and/or JAWS commands (I use JAWS).

When I worked with a PR firm, we all created documents in Word or Mac then
imported into Publisher for the final publication. Everyone was using a word
processor in the initial phases, and it was only when we were ready for
final drafts that we placed into Publisher (which I know is not the same,
but my point being we worked with word processors first).

In my opinion, if material is so inconsistent or has out of order sections,
the writer is either careless, not checking as well as they should before
submitting, or they need a good copyeditor to double check work.
Particularly with out of order sections. This seems incredible to me that if
one is carefully checking a manuscript they would miss this. I mean, shit
does happen when writing and editing, but before submitting, you should
really check and check again then check again to make sure errors like that
have not happened. All my friends who are published hired good story editors
and copyeditors to ensure their manuscripts were free of errors before
submitting. This is the recommended protocol even if self-publishing.

Most my writer friends are literary writers, so maybe that's a difference,
but I don't know any writers who use Scribner. Wait, I know one person, and
he's a screenplay writer. Several use the word processor on MAC, but not
programs like Scribner.

Clearly people use this program, and I'm not contesting its benefits, but I
don't necessarily see the argument that people using Word are more likely to
have errors. If you know what you're doing and double check work, it
shouldn't appear stitched together.

Bridgit

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