[Travelandtourism] Good morning all something not very happy with over at COSTCO on Monday
Margo and Arrow
margo.downey at verizon.net
Wed Feb 22 21:48:39 UTC 2012
Cindy, two questions can be asked of a person with a service animal:
1. Is the animal a service animal; and
2. what tasks does the animal perform for you?
Margo and Arrow
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net>
To: "NFB Travel and Tourism Division List" <travelandtourism at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Travelandtourism] Good morning all something not very happy
with over at COSTCO on Monday
> Why is it acceptable for a cruise company or Walt Disney World to ask if a
> dog is a guide dog, but it's not acceptable for Cosco to do so?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cheryl echevarria
> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 2:27 PM
> To: travelandtourism
> Subject: Re: [Travelandtourism] Good morning all something not very happy
> with over at COSTCO on Monday
>
>
>
> Cindy:
> There is no apparently about it. As a travel professional, as well as,
> anyone else booking travel is not only bringing your guide dog on a cruise
> ship or on vacation. When booking a trip, there are forms to fill out
> prior to traveling.
> Such as with a cruise, there are access forms to be filled out. Asking if
> you need oxygen, braille, wheelchair accessibility, bringing guide
> dog/service animal onboard.
> So you no you just cannot bring a pet on board a cruise ship. You cannot
> just bring a dog into Walt Disney World or other locations. So nothing
> supersedes the ADA, since the guide dog laws are part of the ADA.
> If you are going to lie to your travel professional and take the dog on
> vacation with you, we wont know that until you say something.
> We are not talking about people pretending to be blind, deaf, wheelchair,
> maybe a child with autism, we are talking about us the blind who are. If
> people are out there doing this for shame on them. There are plenty,
> anyone can buy a harness for there dog and say that they are disabled. It
> is up to the person who is doing the farce, to keep up the lying, making
> sure the dog does and acts the way they are suppose to. Our dogs and
> others are trained to be in control, and be good in manor, if not then the
> dog can asked to be removed from the place of acceptance.
> If someone is violating the ADA, then they will be caught for breaking the
> laws in violation as well, impersonating someone who is not disabled and
> getting away with it, in reference to received disability, etc. there are
> very stiff fines in place already for this. It is called fraud.
>
>
> Leading the Way in Independent Travel!
>
> Cheryl Echevarria
> http://www.echevarriatravel.com
> 631-456-5394
> reservations at echevarriatravel.com
>
> For daily updates read our blog at
> http://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com
>
>> From: cindy425 at verizon.net
>> To: travelandtourism at nfbnet.org
>> Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 14:14:51 -0500
>> Subject: Re: [Travelandtourism] Good morning all something not very happy
>> with over at COSTCO on Monday
>>
>> Thanks Margo and Julie for your non-answers. Yes, I know it's illegal,
>> because the ADA apparently says so. But, it seems that it's a bad
>> portion
>> of the law. If I, as a non guide dog user, wanted to have a pet dog and
>> take him/her with me on a cruise or on vacation, then it seems all I need
>> to
>> do is think of a reason that I should have this dog with me and
>> apparently I
>> can't be challenged or even questioned about it. It leaves the area wide
>> open for abuse and people who can actually prove that the dog is a guide
>> dog
>> are getting all upset because someone dares to ask for some proof.
>>
>> Then, does this mean that the ADA supersedes the previous guide dog laws
>> which have been in place for decades?
>>
>> Cindy
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Margo and Arrow
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 12:21 PM
>> To: NFB Travel and Tourism Division List
>> Subject: Re: [Travelandtourism] Good morning all something not very happy
>> with over at COSTCO on Monday
>>
>> Whether it's objectionable or not the ADA says one cannot ask for such
>> proof.
>>
>> Margo and Arrow
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net>
>> To: "NFB Travel and Tourism Division List" <travelandtourism at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 12:12 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Travelandtourism] Good morning all something not very happy
>> with over at COSTCO on Monday
>>
>>
>> > I'm just curious...I don't have a guide dog, but my husband does. I've
>> > heard, for a long time, discussion about people objecting to proving
>> > that
>> > their dog is a guide dog. Why is this request so objectionable? I
>> > thought that was why the schools issue the identification cards.
>> >
>> > Cindy
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Julie J.
>> > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 8:46 AM
>> > To: NFB Travel and Tourism Division List
>> > Subject: Re: [Travelandtourism] Good morning all something not very
>> > happy
>> > with over at COSTCO on Monday
>> >
>> > Cosco is a bit of a sticky situation. I want to say it was in the
>> > early
>> > to mid 90's there was a court case with a service dog handler vs.
>> > Cosco. It centered around these same issues of
>> > certification/paperwork/proof. the case was handled quite badly and
>> > the
>> > judge ruled that Cosco could ask for documentation. I can't remember
>> > all
>> > the details of the case, but it set a very bad precedent. To me it
>> > looks obvious that the verdict is in direct opposition to the ADA, but
>> > the judge didn't agree. I'm remembering that the case was appealed
>> > with
>> > the same results. The case did not make it to the Supreme Court.
>> >
>> > I would take a guess this is why Cosco has the service dog policy they
>> > do and why they get away with it. Not saying it's right. Certainly if
>> > someone has a solid case and wants to take it back to court that could
>> > be a very good thing because it could overturn the previous ruling.
>> >
>> > Good luck with it,
>> > Julie
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 2/22/2012 6:54 AM, cheryl echevarria wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I am posting this to not only the NYAGDU (NY State Division of the
>> >> National Association of Guide Dog Users), but also to the Travel and
>> >> Tourism Division), both proud divisions of the National Federation of
>> >> the
>> >> Blind.
>> >> Traveling is also traveling with accessible entrance to all locations,
>> >> with cane, sighted guide, as well as, guide dog, or other forms of
>> >> mobility that one is comfortable with.
>> >> This past Monday, Presidents Day, Nelson, Maxx (my guide dog) and
>> >> myself, did our bi-monthly shopping of Costco, if some of you do not
>> >> know
>> >> what COSTCO is, it is one of the those membership stores where you buy
>> >> in
>> >> bulk, we don't buy a lot because it is the 2 of us, and I also buy dog
>> >> food there.
>> >> We have been members of Costco for over 12 years.
>> >> When we entered the store after showing our membership card, the lady
>> >> at
>> >> the door, asked to see my dogs certification paperwork.
>> >> Now for those who are not blind and do not know the ADA laws, first
>> >> there
>> >> is no paperwork for a guide dog, and certified, just no such thing.
>> >> The
>> >> schools must be licensed just like any other business, in fact, some
>> >> train there own guide dogs, so this statement that the lady made, was
>> >> incorrect, also the training for the dog makes it a guide dog.
>> >> > From there, I said that I am just going to speak to the store's
>> >> > manager, since I had been in this situation prior, but the manager
>> >> > always apologized for the incorrect way the person talk to me, and
>> >> > also
>> >> > that the employees didn't know better.
>> >> That day was different, the manager, told me that it was correct that
>> >> I
>> >> need to show paperwork on my dog that he is a guide dog, now, I am
>> >> standing in front of him with dark glasses that blind people wear, and
>> >> guide dog in harness.
>> >> I stated that there is no such thing, what makes the dog a guide dog,
>> >> or
>> >> for anyone else that is disabled, is the disability and the training
>> >> that
>> >> the dog gets to be a service animal, he proceeded to tell me that
>> >> others
>> >> have shown him this paperwork, again, what paperwork. I stated not
>> >> only
>> >> am I a graduate of the Guide Dog Foundation of Smithtown, that was
>> >> less
>> >> then 5 minutes away from this location, but that I am a member of that
>> >> National Association of Guide Dog Users, a proud division of the
>> >> National
>> >> Federation of the Blind, and we are one of the organizations that help
>> >> make and enforce the ADA laws pertaining to this. He basically almost
>> >> called me a liar, he said that I am not going to continue the
>> >> conversation.
>> >> He did not tell me I had to leave, but I want to the customer service
>> >> desk with my husband to get the corporate phone number, I tried to
>> >> call
>> >> on my cell phone while I was there, but the reception was really bad,
>> >> and
>> >> so we did shop, and then when we got home I made the calls.
>> >> My first was to customer service, the young lady on the phone that her
>> >> immediate supervisor said that was the policy of Costco to ask for the
>> >> paperwork, she gave me his name, I was writing all of this down, so
>> >> that
>> >> I could give to Marion Gwizdala, President of NAGDU, and Margo Downey,
>> >> President of the NY affiliate of NAGDU (NYAGDU).
>> >> I was then given the number to call for the legal department, when I
>> >> did
>> >> this they said that I couldn't speak to anyone but that I was given
>> >> the
>> >> name of the Regional Vice President of the Area. I called him, and he
>> >> was not there, so I left him a detailed message.
>> >> Within a half and hour, the General Manager, at the store that I went
>> >> to,
>> >> called me back, and it sounded like he was forced to apologize to me,
>> >> he
>> >> didn't realize that I left the store, or the fact that I was actually
>> >> blind.
>> >> I informed him, that I never left the store, but went to get the phone
>> >> numbers that I needed, and did shop. He began to make excuses for
>> >> himself, that he was following training procedures, and that he said,
>> >> that a service animal must have a harness on or a blanket, or
>> >> something
>> >> indicated that they are working dogs. I also corrected him on that
>> >> saying, that is not correct, I can come into this store without a
>> >> cape,
>> >> harness, etc on the dog, and the only thing you can ask me is that a
>> >> working dog/service, guide dog, and what service does the dog provide.
>> >> He was very patronizing still.
>> >> I didn't hear from his Vice President until after 5pm when he was in
>> >> his
>> >> car driving home from work.
>> >> The man kept saying, that is should be obvious that someone is blind
>> >> and
>> >> common sense, but I stated, not always, I do not always wear my dark
>> >> glasses, not all blind people are totally blind. There are also some
>> >> people who are not blind that use a service animal, children that are
>> >> autistic, diabetic, seizure, deaf, etc. It is not always a
>> >> characteristic of the person, to have something that identifies them
>> >> as
>> >> being disabled, and you are not allowed to ask the disability either.
>> >> He also said, that he hates enforcing policy, I said it is not
>> >> costco's
>> >> policy it is the ADA law. I was trying to give him our National
>> >> Hotline
>> >> for NAGDU, and if anyone every has questions about Guide Dogs, ADA,
>> >> etc,
>> >> our Hotline number is 1-888-NAGDU-411 or 1-888-624-3841, that is how I
>> >> found out he was on his car phone on the way home, he told me that he
>> >> couldn't take the number because he was driving home from work. Gee,
>> >> I
>> >> was really important to speak to on this. I mentioned that in NY State
>> >> it
>> >> is a civil violation of our law, other states have criminal laws in
>> >> reference to these violations.
>> >> After this, I informed the people who needed to know such as Marion
>> >> and
>> >> Margo. Mr. Gwizdala, first contact the Costco in his area, and asked
>> >> there policy, he was told basically the same thing, as myself, he also
>> >> got the corporate information, and has been in talks with Costco in
>> >> Seattle. It seems that they are saying that they are a private
>> >> organization and that you need to pay a membership to go there and
>> >> that
>> >> they are outside the ADA.
>> >> FYI, if that is true, which it is not, then I cannot take my dog to my
>> >> gym, it is a private membership, or go to a restaurant you have to pay
>> >> to
>> >> eat there, or go to a movie or theater. So that I couldn't go
>> >> anywhere
>> >> with my dog.
>> >> I would say if you are a guide dog user, or even if you use a service
>> >> animal, and the laws have changed to what kind of animal is considered
>> >> a
>> >> service dog.
>> >> It cannot be a comfort dog, it cannot be the dog you carry around in
>> >> your
>> >> pocketbook. It also must be either a dog, or a guide horse, no cats,
>> >> birds, snakes, monkeys, etc any more. You must have a valid medical
>> >> disability that you can get one. So many disabilities and illnesses
>> >> can
>> >> qualify for a service animal now.
>> >> Stayed tuned for more
>> >> Leading the Way in Independent Travel!
>> >>
>> >> Cheryl Echevarria
>> >> http://www.echevarriatravel.com
>> >> 631-456-5394
>> >> reservations at echevarriatravel.com
>> >>
>> >> For daily updates read our blog at
>> >> http://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com
>> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >
>> >
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>> >
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>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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>> >
>>
>>
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