[nfbcs] Inaccessible Training - again

Tue Feb 19 04:11:54 UTC 2013

Tami,

For one, I appreciate your efforts to find other solutions.  What you say about usability and accessibility is something to keep in mind because there may be opportunities to use it.  I am not discounting that.  I 
am, rather, just a little frustrated with the lack of thought in some software design for anybody's ability to use it efficiently.  <smile>

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Mon, 18 Feb 2013 17:56:15 -0800, Tami Jarvis wrote:

>Well, for the short term and on a large scale, I can only agree with 
>you. Especially for those big corporate software developers with really 
>well-developed, stable market shares. If they can keep selling it... Sigh.

>Since I'm not personally in a position to go hire a lawyer and sue 
>anyone into submission -- and would not want to be there! -- I guess I'm 
>just trying to think of some other angles of approach that might nudge 
>things in a more positive direction.

>And I really do cheer those who do sue and win, and all those who put in 
>the time and sweat on those big, long, hairy legislative efforts and the 
>major suits like those against the universities that purchase 
>inaccessible software and all the rest. Without all of those efforts, 
>we'd all be sitting home without being able to use our computers at all 
>to complain about problems at work because of computers. /smile/

>The rest can supplement, as well, if on a smaller scale and over more 
>time... So I'm not really advocating one approach over another or 
>thinking I can come up with that one brilliant magical solution that is 
>what we really need... Or could we have Dumbledore come back robed in 
>white to throw Lord Voldemort into the Cracks of Doom and his little 
>Ring, too... And why do I have to wait for my birthday to find out what 
>happens at Shayol Ghul? /lol/

>Tami

>On 02/18/2013 01:06 PM, Steve Jacobson wrote:
>> Tami,
>>
>> I question to what degree most employers now care about usability.  I would even go a step further and say that many software
>> developers care more about having a feature than how usable it is.  This isn't to say that what you say is wrong, rather I just
>> have doubts that it can be leveraged to make change happen on a scale that we need it to happen.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Steve Jacobson
>>
>> On Mon, 18 Feb 2013 11:12:20 -0800, Tami Jarvis wrote:
>>
>>> Operation Fulcrum seems descriptive enough. /smile/
>>
>>> What I have found is that by tying accessibility to usability, it is
>>> quite possible to draw the lines for an exec to the profit margin
>>> because usability results in productivity.
>>
>>> It's also very possible to draw the connection in discussing the
>>> development process, from several angles. Quite a lot of accessible
>>> design for the officially disabled really benefits the usability for the
>>> overall end user pool. So you can show benefit to more than that small
>>> minority of employees.
>>
>>> The very small time (and thus expense) spent in building in that
>>> accessibility/usability) from the outset can also be shown to save a lot
>>> down the road for any application, from inhibiting the dreaded project
>>> creep to work in all that useless whiz bang, to ease of maintenance and
>>> upgrades for the application when it is in use.
>>
>>> And so on. I've had the advantage of working for small to medium sized
>>> companies, where I often *was* the des/dev team, which probably made it
>>> easier to communicate these points to the boss, or to the client. Well,
>>> when I was starting out and charging by the hour, the fact that I was
>>> pointing out that it was me they would paying less for better function
>>> helped the sell. /lol/ But, of course, the benefit to me was better word
>>> of mouth, so I gained more than I lost.
>>
>>> Drawing the profit lines is trickier when you factor in third-party
>>> software firms... They're profiting by selling their behemoth
>>> applications to corporations who are then vested in the product and
>>> likely to buy the upgrades and hope for the best... The problems of
>>> end-user productivity are not theirs, so why worry? Hm... A coordinated
>>> communication/education effort might get somebody somewhere with some of
>>> those bloated corporate software providers, but... Using the legal
>>> options when possible as disincentive can be called communication and
>>> education, too!
>>
>>> So our Operation Fulcrum is indeed a balancing act, isn't it?
>>
>>> Tami
>>
>>> On 02/17/2013 05:02 PM, Mike Freeman wrote:
>>>> Problem is that I don't believe companies can truly make a larger prophet by
>>>> making things accessible. If we buy that one, we're only kidding ourselves.
>>>>
>>>> And half the time, we on this list can't solve the problems vicariously
>>>> because each situation is different, the number of technologies being
>>>> required to work together seamlessly presents a plethora of permutations and
>>>> combinations that aren't easily anticipated and, in any event, we've agreed,
>>>> at least in principle, that it is unrealistic to expect that all interfaces,
>>>> software and such meet minimum standards for accessibility while having
>>>> their fancy stuff not interfere.
>>>>
>>>> Let's face it, we're a small minority. So for the most part, the law,
>>>> ineffective as it sometimes is, is about our only point of leverage.
>>>>
>>>> If we *did* do an investigation of this topic formally, would it be called
>>>> Operation Fulcrum?
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of david hertweck
>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 4:07 PM
>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessible Training - again
>>>>
>>>> You have good points, but the path that may help is.
>>>> 1. share your problems on this list and let the talented people on this
>>>> group pitch in to try and solve the problem.
>>>> 2. I strongly believe if we can show companies how they can make a larger
>>>> profit by making their product accessible this will work better than laws.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Larry Wayland
>>>> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 1:13 PM
>>>> To: 'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessible Training - again
>>>>
>>>> Dave, Gabe
>>>> I agree with your points, especially the one about not griping on the job,
>>>> but I think discussion should be wide open. Discussion is a normal thing in
>>>> the work place and should include accessibility when necessary.
>>>> Thinking outside the box is a good idea as well, but not everyone has that
>>>> capability, at least to the point necessary to adapt work sites to the
>>>> extent some of them need to be adapted.  Engineers are trained to think
>>>> outside the box. Not everyone has that ability and there are job situations
>>>> where thinking outside the box will do no good at all. I don't see what
>>>> could be done to make a customer site accessible if is not. The companies
>>>> using the software are not going to let you make changes to the software and
>>>> all the work is right there in front of you either you can fill in the boxes
>>>> or you can't. If you can talk the companies into letting you try to fix the
>>>> problems with scripts or adjust the access software they sure are not going
>>>> to give you much time. They want production and I don't blame them. The
>>>> software should be accessible from the drawing board. I think only laws
>>>> backed by education has any chance of working.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione
>>>> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 11:43 AM
>>>> To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessiable Training - again
>>>>
>>>> David and Gabe, I'm sure we all know these points.  But, if the training is
>>>> just not accessible, I can spend all the time in the world looking at it,
>>>> and still be where I was when I started.  Now, I could possibly log in from
>>>> home and hire someone at home to do the mouse clicking.  That will work for
>>>> training that doesn't involve anything confidential.  Otherwise, if there's
>>>> no one at work who can help me, I'm S.O.L.
>>>> Tracy
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "david hertweck" <david.hertweck at sbcglobal.net>
>>>> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, February 15, 2013 8:45 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessiable Training - again
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> As a blind engineer and now a manager working for a large company I found
>>>>> the best approach is:
>>>>> 1. Try and find a way to do your job, be creative, think out of the box,
>>>>> make it work.
>>>>> 2. Put in extra hours.  I know a lot of sighted engineers if they are not
>>>>> as effective as other people they put in the extra time so we should be
>>>>> willing to do this.
>>>>> 3. Remember everyone has tasks to complete and completing yours can not
>>>>> interfere with others.
>>>>> 4. Before asking for help have an exact plan for how can that person help
>>>>> you.  What does not work is to ask someone to make "X" accessible for you.
>>>>> 5. Never "complain" find answers. It is super to "complain" in this forum
>>>>> but not at work.
>>>>> 6. Always remember your manager most likely has more work and certainly
>>>>> more responsibilities than you do, so you should never add to them for
>>>>> accessibility problems.
>>>>> 7. Always remember you are there for the company not the company for you.
>>>>>
>>>>> thanks
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> through out my work life
>>>>> and now as a manager of course they are not overwellming
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: majolls at cox.net
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 10:50 AM
>>>>> To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Inaccessiable Training - again
>>>>>
>>>>> Gary and all
>>>>>
>>>>> I think you hit the nail on the head.  To what end do you "complain"?  If
>>>>> you don't, you don't get anywhere.  And if you do (too much) you are
>>>>> perceived as a burden ... and managers would rather not deal with you and
>>>>> get someone else that doesn't have the requirement that you do.  I work
>>>>> for a large corporation.  I found that while managers can be sympathetic,
>>>>> others just don't care.  it really depends on your luck of the draw
>>>>> regarding what manager you do get.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can remember voicing concern about sitting in a large room for a
>>>>> presentation where they had big monitors up on the wall.  A presenter
>>>>> would be running his demo, and the display was up on the "big screen".
>>>>> Unfortunately, I couldn't read the big screen.  I was just too far away
>>>>> and I'm just too blind.  When I voiced concern, what I mostly got was
>>>>> "just do your best" ... which was absolutely no help.  I finally came up
>>>>> with the idea ... "just run a data feed to a separate monitor that can be
>>>>> placed on a table that I can sit close to".  That idea really worked, but
>>>>> it took me ... not them ... to come up with the idea.  The managers ...
>>>>> who are supposed to help you ... didn't have a clue what I needed, or what
>>>>
>>>>> might work.  And, if I complained too much, they just said ... "do your
>>>>> best" and sort of turned a deaf ear.
>>>>>
>>>>> And as far as going to bat for you ... trying to get the application
>>>>> changed so it's accessible ... I think most managers have priorities on
>>>>> what they have to get done.  When you require someone to sit with you
>>>>> (meaning time and money) or when you ask your manager to help you ...
>>>>> they'll do it as long as it isn't excessive ... meaning as long as it
>>>>> doesn't take a lot of time and money.  If it does, you're kind of on your
>>>>> own.  And as far as them modifying software to be accessible ... that's
>>>>> only an option if your company doesn't have a lot of other "business
>>>>> requirements" they have to get done first.  Where I'm at, that's always
>>>>> the case.
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess we all just need to be experts on Accessibility programming so we
>>>>> can do it ourselves.  Wish I had better things to say, but I've only had
>>>>> 35 years of experience in dealing with this.  And it doesn't sound like
>>>>> the federal government is any better than private industry.  People
>>>>> (managers) are people no matter where you go I suppose.
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/david.hertweck%40sbcgloba
>>>> l.net
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access.net
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nfbcs:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/lhwayland%40sbcglobal.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nfbcs:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/david.hertweck%40sbcgloba
>>>> l.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nfbcs:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nfbcs:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/tami%40poodlemutt.com
>>>>
>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nfbcs:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfbcs mailing list
>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nfbcs:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/tami%40poodlemutt.com
>>

>_______________________________________________
>nfbcs mailing list
>nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nfbcs:
>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com