[nfbcs] Blindness and Computer Science RE: (no subject)

Thu Feb 21 01:25:04 UTC 2013

You bet. I can read my own code without much effort, but that other guy's
code sometimes leaves me wondering what he was trying to do. I am
embarrassed to admit that after four or five years I have sometimes found my
own code difficult--it all made so much sense at the time.

-----Original Message-----
From: nfbcs [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Aaron Cannon
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 5:16 PM
To: NFB in Computer Science Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Blindness and Computer Science RE: (no subject)

Another language to look at would be Python.  Even though I mostly work in
PHP and JavaScript at work, Python is my favorite.  It's good for the web,
good for the server, and as a few companies have shown, such as Dropbox, it
can be good for the desktop as well.

Something else I'd add to the conversation is that when you decide to learn
a programming language, you should keep in mind that fluency is not just
about writing well in a language, but also being able to read and understand
what others have written.  For me, the latter has proven to be much more
difficult to master than the former.

Aaron

On 2/20/13, Tami Jarvis <tami at poodlemutt.com> wrote:
> Teehee. Love it! And all very good. Funny that not that long ago, 
> C/C++, etc., was just too old school... So Ms. Too Cool For That Here 
> now frequently wishes she'd taken time out to learn it! /lol/
>
> On 02/20/2013 11:56 AM, William Grussenmeyer wrote:
>> the anti-novel
>> two words: mobile programming
>> developers.android.com
>> developer.apple.com
>> languages to know: Java, ObjectiveC, C/C++ good books on 
>> bookshare.org = easiest ones to read, anything too complicated is 
>> worthless
>>
>> You can hook your apple or android phone or tablet directly to your 
>> computer and download your app right in front of you.
>>
>> bill
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2/20/13, Tami Jarvis <tami at poodlemutt.com> wrote:
>>> Zeeshan,
>>>
>>> Those are all great questions! I'll see if I can manage answers 
>>> without turning them into a novel. /smile/
>>>
>>> We just moved out into the sticks for family reasons, so what I do 
>>> now is wonder how the heck to get into programming somehow here. 
>>> Which I've done before, so we'll see how it goes. /smile/ I'm 
>>> focusing on getting my database skills back up to snuff, since I see 
>>> more possibility to use those for smaller businesses around here. So 
>>> I'm using php for the programming to build the user interface on my 
>>> practice project. The MySQL/php combination is so ubiquitous these 
>>> days that it seems as good a place to start as any, especially since 
>>> most of my background is web-based. I do need to pick a non-web 
>>> language sooner or later to focus on next. Even what I did know has 
>>> changed so much that I just need to relearn everything! /lol/
>>>
>>> I'm still getting information from the job market we just moved 
>>> from, and it's finally picking up after the long dearth. One thing I 
>>> really notice in those announcements is the focus on experience over 
>>> education in qualifications, even for the more advanced positions.
Interesting.
>>> Also, more mention of "related experience," which gives latitude for 
>>> a career-changer I should think.
>>>
>>> Challenges as a not-young career-change programmer... The biggest 
>>> hurdle I've had to overcome is the credibility gap that comes from 
>>> lack of sheepskin. But don't you have a degree? That gives you an 
>>> edge right there when it comes to having your ideas heard and 
>>> implemented, which is what leads to greater opportunity after you do 
>>> get your foot in the door. It can be really frustrating, but the 
>>> solution is patience and a whole lot of that extra time and effort 
>>> just to prove yourself. But, there, the advantage of having worked 
>>> in other areas of business is that you can demonstrate that you know 
>>> a lot that the folks you're working for will understand and 
>>> appreciate. When it comes down to it, computer skill and programming 
>>> expertise is really great for advancing one's career without 
>>> absolutely needing to drop everything to polish off the degree, 
>>> which is how I ended up shifting into it. /smile/
>>>
>>> Also, those dreaded young kids who have been programming since they 
>>> were in diapers also have a whole lot of energy without necessarily 
>>> having gotten into those other life responsibilities us old and 
>>> weary types have. They can program circles around you all day, then 
>>> go home and spend the night learning all about the new stuff that is 
>>> coming along and getting good at it... I've learned to enjoy feeling 
>>> stupid and left behind because I can learn a lot from what they're 
>>> learning. /smile/ I just have to remember that I can leverage my 
>>> overall experience and maturity to keep up in ways they haven't learned
to yet.
>>>
>>> I also need to target my off-the-job learning more efficiently, 
>>> because everything is always changing. What I know today will get me 
>>> nowhere tomorrow. So that counts as a challenge for sure, although 
>>> that's what I like about the field. There's a lot of tedium involved 
>>> in many facets of the programming process, but you never have time 
>>> to just settle back and get bored and complacent. /smile/
>>>
>>> I'd better end the novel now before I get myself in real trouble. I 
>>> found making the switch to programming and design and development to 
>>> be very worthwhile and keep coming back to that as my best option 
>>> for getting back into something I can do as a blind person here, if 
>>> not so conveniently as if there were, you know, jobs out here. /lol/ 
>>> But all that earlier business experience will come in real handy 
>>> again as we get settled and get back out for networking and all. I 
>>> can, I hope eventually, chat up some opportunity. /smile/
>>>
>>> Let us know how your further research goes and what you decide to do.
>>>
>>> Tami
>>>
>>>
>>> On 02/19/2013 03:56 PM, Zeeshan Khan wrote:
>>>> Hi Tami,
>>>> Thanks for your thoughtful response.
>>>>
>>>> So what kind of programming do you do now? Do you think age plays a 
>>>> factor when it comes to learning programming because nowadays you 
>>>> have young kids in their teens becoming wizards at programming. It 
>>>> seems like your experience has been great a a programmer, what are 
>>>> some of the challenges you face being a programmer in general, not 
>>>> necessarily being blind, when it came to learning programming? Any 
>>>> specific resources you would be able ot point me to, as I am 
>>>> looking to get started right away.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Zeeshan
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Tami Jarvis <tami at poodlemutt.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi, and welcome!
>>>>>
>>>>> Like you, I got into programming along the way of my career and made a
>>>>> career switch of it starting about the time I got to be legally blind.
>>>>> I
>>>>> just happened to have the opportunity to pick up a project no one else
>>>>> wanted, which led to a more advanced project, which got me hooked. I
>>>>> could
>>>>> also see the advantage of having those skills for the future because
>>>>> the
>>>>> technology was coming along that would make it possible to continue to
>>>>> do
>>>>> it as I lost the ability to read along the way. Back then, it was a
>>>>> real
>>>>> advantage to be able to read print because there wasn't the equivalent
>>>>> wealth of accessible reading material there is now. Stuff happened, so
>>>>> I'm
>>>>> happy all that material I need to read is available in the formats I
>>>>> need
>>>>> now to get back up to snuff and advance my skills. Whew!
>>>>>
>>>>> Oddly, the new stuff I'm learning nonvisually from the get go is
>>>>> actually
>>>>> proving easier than what I'm re-learning that I learned visually and
>>>>> now
>>>>> have to totally reconceptualize, especially for programming. That
>>>>> doesn't
>>>>> prove a thing, but I thought I'd mention it anyway. /smile/ The stuff
>>>>> I
>>>>> used to need a pencil and drawing pad for on the design end is dratted
>>>>> difficult, but since I know blind people who do it and have picked up
>>>>> some
>>>>> hints of how from them, I'm beginning to make headway even there.
>>>>> Whew!
>>>>>
>>>>> As for the bit where you need "a solid foundation in computer science"
>>>>> ...
>>>>> Generally, it is people who *aren't* in the field who come up with
>>>>> that
>>>>> one. Real programmers these days seem to be more of the opinion -- and
>>>>> so
>>>>> am I -- that you can get going and accomplish quite a lot without
>>>>> actually
>>>>> knowing all the nitty gritty underlayers between your program and the
>>>>> machine.
>>>>>
>>>>> That being said, it wouldn't hurt to read up on the machines
>>>>> themselves
>>>>> if
>>>>> you don't already have a general idea of how they work below the
>>>>> surface.
>>>>> Programming is really communicating with the machine in a way that
>>>>> makes
>>>>> sense to it. Most modern programming languages enable you to do that
>>>>> by
>>>>> using existing compilers that translate your instructions down to the
>>>>> machine itself. So if you learn Java, say, you can focus on what is
>>>>> there
>>>>> and let the Java compiler take care of the rest. If that makes sense.
>>>>> But
>>>>> for learning purposes of *how* to use Java to do more than send
>>>>> greetings
>>>>> to the world or make balls bounce colorfully, I think it would be a
>>>>> strength to understand how and why at least in a general way. But that
>>>>> could be just me. /smile/
>>>>>
>>>>> Er... If you haven't really gotten started yet, I will translate my
>>>>> last
>>>>> attempt at humor: "Hello, World!" That is the first program you will
>>>>> ever
>>>>> write in any programming language. /lol/ Then you will probably give
>>>>> greetings in colorful text and... Well, it's a start, and I'm doing
>>>>> more
>>>>> tutorials, and it's still there.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tami
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 02/18/2013 08:28 PM, Zeeshan Khan wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Nicole,
>>>>>> Yeah sorry about that, I realized I hadn't included a subject after I
>>>>>> sent
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am looking to establish a solid foundation in programming whether
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> in programming for the computer or the internet. I really want to
>>>>>> start
>>>>>> out
>>>>>> learning the basics and work my way up to being good enough to land a
>>>>>> job
>>>>>> hopefully.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What I hear many people say is , if you don't have a solid foundation
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> computer science, it doesn't make sense to jump into different
>>>>>> languages
>>>>>> if
>>>>>> you are a beginner.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 8:15 PM, Nicole Torcolini
>>>>>> <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>**wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    What kind of programming are you thinking about? There is
>>>>>> programming
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> runs on the computer itself and there is programming that works on
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> internet. Both have high level and low level languages.
>>>>>>> Also, on a side note, please include subjects in your emails in the
>>>>>>> futures
>>>>>>> as emails without subjects are often suspected of being spam or a
>>>>>>> virus.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nicole
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nfbcs
>>>>>>> [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.**org<nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Zeeshan Khan
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 8:09 PM
>>>>>>> To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> Subject: [nfbcs] (no subject)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am trying to learn programming and I am an absolute beginner. As a
>>>>>>> legally
>>>>>>> blind person I want to ask you all if anyone has learned programming
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> computer science as a blind person. The things is I have already
>>>>>>> gotten
>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>> degree in economics about 3 years ago, so I am not sure if I am too
>>>>>>> late
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> the field. So how did any of you learn computer science/
>>>>>>> programming?
>>>>>>> What
>>>>>>> resources did you use? how long did it take you to become a decent
>>>>>>> programmer, or at least good enough to land a job? I am not trying
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>> back to school and get a Bachelors as it own't really help me, plus
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>> have the time as I am working. I really want to learn computer
>>>>>>> science
>>>>>>> as I
>>>>>>> am looking to make a career change, and the future is in technology.
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> am
>>>>>>> aware of many online resources, like codecademy, coursera and other
>>>>>>> free
>>>>>>> things online, but not sure if I should get into these, as I lack a
>>>>>>> foundation in computer science. What is the job market like , in
>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>> opinion?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I really look forward to hearing your thoughts and experiences,
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Zeeshan Khan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ToiBooks
>>>>>>> www.toibooks.com
>>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/**ToiBooks
>>>>>>> <http://www.facebook.com/ToiBooks>
>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
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>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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