[nfbcs] [program-l] Re: Communication with people who don't use screen readers

[Steve Jacobson]

Sabra,

Since your messages have started threads on both program-l and NFBCS, I am
copying both lists on my response.  I have a different take on this than
some.  I am not dealing with any legal requirements here, though.

Over the years, I have had to take courses as part of my job.  What I have
found to work best is to start out taking the courses with a reader.  In
other words, I have made a point to learn what the class is being taught
without dealing with accessibility issues all at once.  The fact is that to
some degree, the issues you are facing are issues that will be there on the
job.  Schools are required to address accessibility, even if they don't
always do it well, but many workplaces do not have to address accessibility,
at least not to the same degree.

What I have found is that if I understand how the software works for a
sighted person, even if it means they have to do a lot of the clicking at
first, I have a much easier time seeing how accessibility alternatives can
work.  I have found that as I learned, I was able to gradually find
accessible means of doing the same thing and becoming more and more
independent in the course.  

There are probably things that you can tell your professor that could help,
but some of what you are describing would require such a change for the
professor that it seems unlikely that the change will be made soon enough to
benefit you.  Working with a reader could address that gap to some degree.  

There are sometimes advantages in learning software that you can't use.
There was a point in my job when I had to make choices about which reporting
software would be used for a project.  I was not the one using it, but I was
the one deciding which was the best.  I had to understand the alternatives
to make that decision even though I couldn't use it.  Learning how to use it
with a reader allowed me to understand the software well enough to make that
choice.  It may sound very trite, but remember you are in the class to learn
what the professor has to teach, not to learn accessibility alternatives, so
figuring out how best to learn the course content is to some degree separate
from accessibility.  I am not saying that alternative exercises and such
might not be reasonable sometimes, nor am I saying that talking to the
professor is not a good idea.  Rather, I am just saying that learning the
content and then working accessibility in has worked far better for me than
trying to take a crash course in accessibility at the outset while getting
behind in the class.

Good luck, and I hope everything works out for you.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

-----Original Message-----
From: program-l-bounce at freelists.org [mailto:program-l-bounce at freelists.org]
On Behalf Of Sabra Ewing
Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2016 12:59 PM
To: program-l at freelists.org
Subject: [program-l] Re: Communication with people who don't use screen
readers

I do understand how knowing what the screen looks like would make it easier
to communicate with sighted people, but it would be really hard. It would be
so difficult that I would have to leave this class, and go through a
specialized training course that would last one or two semesters that is
specifically geared toward knowing what the screen looks like. Even with
that, I don't know how it would work because I can't understand things that
people say are simple like the layout of a grocery store. I mean, I know
simple things like that the frozen food is at the back of the store, but
it's not the same. For some reason, I understand the streets outside a lot
better. I guess what I'm saying is that I have found some way to travel even
though I don't understand where anything is, so there must be someway for me
to understand what the screen looks like, but focusing on that and focusing
on trying to get through this class at the same time would be too much. This
semester has already start  ed. It is actually in full swing and I am
already behind. Everyone else is already taken their first exam, but we had
to doing mine because I can't even control the software yet. I am majoring
in computer information systems, not computer science, so I'm sure I could
find something that would not rely on me knowing what the screen looks like.
Hey coordinate system is really easy for me to understand, and I can use it
for traveling a lot better than I can use a map, so maybe I could use that
to know when the screen looks like in a simplified way, but I really have to
get through this class.

Sabra Ewing

> On Oct 8, 2016, at 8:04 AM, Florian Beijers <florianbeijers at gmail.com>
wrote:
> 
> Hi David,
> 
> I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. Especially in 
> Sabra's case since I think they are having a hard time visualizing how 
> a screen, or anythin really, looks to a sighted person, it sounds to 
> me like the effort would be far higher than the potential gain.
> Just curious though, why do you think in this situation knowing what 
> the screen looks like is beneficial, given the fact they want to use a 
> screen reader to control the program? Is it pure a matter of having a 
> shared vocabulary about the program with their sighted peers?
> I notice that apart from the standard Windows conventions (title bar, 
> menubar below, toolbar below that and at the bottom a status bar), I 
> tend not to know what a program looks like either and don't really 
> find it easy to care all that much. is it different for you?
> 
> Florian
> 
> 
> 2016-10-08 14:42 GMT+02:00, David Reynolds <david at dkreynolds.plus.com>:
>> Florian,
>> 
>> I certainly agree with a great deal of what you say, but essentially, 
>> I think it important that as visually impaired developers, it is 
>> important to understand what the screen does like. There is no 
>> substitute for time spent with a sympathetic listener on this one 
>> provided they have the relevant knowledge and a desire to help.
>> 
>> David.
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: program-l-bounce at freelists.org 
>> [mailto:program-l-bounce at freelists.org]
>> On Behalf Of Florian Beijers
>> Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2016 12:58 PM
>> To: program-l at freelists.org
>> Subject: [program-l] Re: Communication with people who don't use 
>> screen readers
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I am going to paste your message here again. In the text, at the end 
>> of your lines, I will add my comments and I will always start them 
>> with (fb). That way, you can easily find them using JAWS find, NVDA 
>> find or any other finding technique you are familiar with.
>> Here we go :)
>> 
>> I am in a visual basic class that uses visual studio. Before we 
>> start, note that I have been blind since birth. I know nothing about 
>> how sighted people use the computer apart from the fact that their 
>> icons look like pictures and they click on them with a mouse.  (fb) 
>> This is basically correct, often what a screen reader tells you can 
>> either be a visible label of text on a control that sighted people 
>> see as well, or it is an icon that, behind the scenes as it were, 
>> gets sent to your screenreader while the sighted people only see an 
>> icon of, for example, an envelope to send email, or a play button to set
something in motion.
>> 
>> My problem is that even though Visual studio is completely 
>> accessible, I don't have any resources to know how to work it and it 
>> is not very intuitive. I have been working with my professor and 
>> several other people to try to work something out, but they don't know a
lot about screen readers.
>> (fb) Any IDE (integrated development environment) will have some 
>> complexity going on when you're not used to such programs. When you 
>> are using a textbook to work through, the book will often reference 
>> going to windows, toolbars or icons because that's what sighted users 
>> tend to be familiar with. However, for you that is obviously not 
>> going to fly. How about you and I sit down on Skype some time to go 
>> over some of Visual Studio's controls and how you can best access 
>> them using your screen reader? Are you familiar with Skype?
>> 
>> 
>> I explained that optimally, I should be able to work Visual Studio 
>> myself if I could just know how, but they seem to think that I can't 
>> do it because it is too complicated, not because I lack the 
>> appropriate resources.  (fb) You need to nip this in the bud as soon 
>> as possible. You are supposed to do the class, not someone else who 
>> you tell what to do. How are you expected to actually use the skills 
>> you have learned later on if you always need someone to help you?
>> 
>> It was suggested that I would have an assistant click on things for 
>> me and I will tell them what to click on. I explained it that that 
>> wasn't going to work, and they thought that it is because I am too 
>> independent and don't w ant to do it, but that isn't it. At this 
>> point, I am willing to do anything to get through the class, but I 
>> really don't think it would work. I could not tell a sighted person 
>> to do something that I know how to do like edit a worksheet and XL or 
>> put a header in a word document. So if I can't tell you how to do 
>> basic things on the computer using a mouse, how can I tell you how to 
>> use a barely familiar piece of software?  (fb) You can't , because 
>> for all intents and purposes you are working with a different interface
than they are.
>> Often icons get translated to bits of text for you. This makes the 
>> program usable by you, but you won't know how the ivsual 
>> representation looks on the screen so you can't tell someone what 
>> icon to click unless you memorize all of them, which is quite the chore
and not at all useful to you.
>> 
>> They say it would be easy though and I would just tell them what to 
>> click on, but I can't do that, but I can't explain why to somebody 
>> who does not know a lot about screen readers.  (fb) Simple. Tell them 
>> that you are not receiving an item's location , nor the way it looks, 
>> when going through a user interface with a screenreader. You are only 
>> receiving the so-called accessible name of the item, which often 
>> doesn't match up with what a sighted user sees on the screen. When 
>> you hear you have landed on the Build option in the toolbar, you 
>> don't know where that toolbar is, where the icon is and what the icon 
>> looks like. Therefore there is no way for you to translate what you 
>> are hearing into what they are seeing without significant work you eally
don't need to do.
>> 
>> 
>> My professor says that my assistant would not know anything about 
>> visual studio so I couldn't use them to cheat on a test, so that 
>> means I couldn't just say something like, go to data tools or rename 
>> the table. The only way I can think of it to make that work is have a 
>> list of things I want to do, followed by a description of how to do 
>> it with the mouse, and I would just have to memorize ea ch 
>> description, but that would be very difficult, and if the description 
>> did not work for my assistant, the only thing I would be able to do 
>> is just repeat it. (fb> You are right, this is impractical at best.
>> My professor said that I could have the office for students with 
>> disabilities produce a tactile picture of the screen. If there is a 
>> way to make that work, I would try it, but I don't know how. I don't 
>> know how the picture would fit on one page, and even though pages 
>> could be stuck together, it would start to get too big for me to read.
>> Plus the screen changes all the time. (fb> This might work if your 
>> screen would be static, but this is by no means the case in visual 
>> studio. Again, this wouldn't help you because you don't need to know 
>> what the screen looks like to be able to work with it.
>> 
>> Even my cited classmates seem to think that if I know where something 
>> is on the screen, that will help, but these computers are not 
>> touchscreen. (fb) Even if they were, it would be quite tricky to use 
>> VS from just a touch screen I'm afraid.
>> I don't know how I would remember that though. For example, if you 
>> put a dot on a page, take the page away, and give me a blank page and 
>> the dot, I will not be able to put my dot in the same place no matter 
>> how many times I look at it. (fb) This is called spacial orientation 
>> and is tricky for a lot of blind people. Most people can give an 
>> aproximation of where the dot is, but usually no more than that and some
can't get it done at all.
>> On my phone, I know where things are on the corners of the screen 
>> after keeping  everything in the same place for four years, but I was 
>> thinking about this, and I really have no idea about the location of 
>> most of the things on my screen. If I need to go to an app, I flick 
>> to the folder where it is, tap on that folder, and go to the page 
>> where it is located and then flick until I find it. (fb) And many 
>> others with you
>> :)
>> If I can't do that because it is being really elusive, then I just 
>> asked Siri to open it. I can type on a touchscreen keyboard though, 
>> so that has to mean I know where the letters are on the screen 
>> somehow, but I don't know how that is. (fb) it's something called 
>> muscle memory. You do it so often that your thumb knows where the 
>> letters are, even if you don't consciously know it yourself.
>> 
>> That aside, even if I could somehow figure out how to know where 
>> things are on the screen, I don't know how I would click on it. I 
>> can't use the mouse, but I can't explain to people why that is. They 
>> say if I know where it is, then I should be able to point at it with 
>> the mouse. (fb) It sounds to me the people you are working with are 
>> missing the rather important concept that you aren't actually able to 
>> use your eyes to see the screen, you are using a screen reader which 
>> parses the screen for you into a format you can sequentially go 
>> through, even if you can't see the screen. That is the whole point of 
>> a screen reader :) You can't use a mouse because you can't see where your
mouse is in relation to other objects on screen.
>> 
>> Maybe a picture of the screen would be different, but I can't read a 
>> tactile nap, and I feel like that ups the risk factor. They tried for 
>> years in school to teach me us ing a variety of methods, but it 
>> wouldn't work. (fb) Again, it sounds to me you're not very good at 
>> spacial orientation, which is fine.
>> Loads of people aren't and you don't need to be to be able to program.
>> 
>> The last thing I am trying to explain is that if you tell me how to 
>> do something based on how an icon looks such as go to the green arrow 
>> or the red triangle, I will not be able to do it, even if you are 
>> asking me to perform a task I already know how to complete.  (fb) Of 
>> course not, you have no idea what the green arrow stands for or where 
>> it is so you can't use that kind of instruction.
>> I understand the concept of how an icon can be a picture, and how 
>> excited person clicks on that picture to do something, but I cannot 
>> match up the pictures they use with what I'm doing. This is not just 
>> becoming a problem working the software. It is becoming a problem with
learning the material.
>> For example, I was trying to learn to create an error provider 
>> control. I did, and there was supposedly an error message flashing 
>> when I typed in something in valid, but if someone had not told me, I 
>> would not have known that.  (fb) What you are running into there is an
accessibility problem.
>> There is ways of making your screen reader read out that error 
>> message when it flashes so you are aware of it, you are not supposed 
>> to know what the error is if it only flashes at you on screen. This 
>> is not a problem with you, its an issue with either that control, 
>> your screen reader or something else internal.
>> 
>> 
>> If I had been using the program, all I would have known is that it 
>> wouldn't let me move onto the next text box for some reason. I was 
>> told to put something on th ere called a status bar strip as well, 
>> but it didn't do anything.
>> (fb) It most likely did, a status bar strip, for sighted people, is a 
>> kind of rectangular area on the bottom of the screen that holds 
>> status information. For example the page number of your current page 
>> in Word lives down there. Your screenreader will have a hotkey to 
>> read that status bar aloud for you, I don't know what the hotkey is 
>> I'm afraid, I haven't used JAWS in a long time, but I can certainly find
out for you.
>> 
>> They also say that jaws has a problem because they want to change the 
>> text of a button without changing the name. For example, they will 
>> place a button that is automatically named button one, then go to the 
>> text property and change that to insert or whatever it should be. But 
>> when I do that, it just says button one, button  two, and so forth. 
>> In order to be able to use the buttons, I have to change the name so 
>> it matches up with the text. I don't know exactly what this means, 
>> but I'm assuming there is probably a picture of a button like maybe an
elevator button, and there is text next to it.
>> (fb) This is a bit of a tricky one to explain. Before you have 
>> compiled your program, so, when you are still in what's called the 
>> Forms designer, JAWS will read the programmatic name of the control. 
>> This would be button1 if you don't change it, and is indeed 
>> controlled by the name property. This is the name you use to , in 
>> your program, refer to that button, but the sighted people are not 
>> seeing  this name visually. They see the text property on that 
>> button. This is very similar to you hearing a control's name, where a 
>> sighted person sees its icon. After you have compiled your program, 
>> JAWS should instead use the button's text property so you will hear 
>> it as well, but this doesn't happen yet at design time. That's where 
>> your error in translation is coming from
>> :)
>> 
>> Also, when I put a text box, I also have to put a label, but that 
>> doesn't make sense because the text box is already labeled. It is 
>> automatically labeled text box one when you place it.  (fb) No, it is 
>> automatically named, but not labeled, textbox1 when you create it.
>> JAWS will read this name at design time, and I think if there's no 
>> associated label for JAWS after the program is compiled, it wil still 
>> read
>> textbox1 because there's nothing else for it to read. This is another 
>> little accessibility gotcha.
>> 
>> All I can figure is that sighted people can't see the label for some 
>> reason or maybe they need two of them. (fb) haha :) The sighted 
>> people are not seeing that label, you are correct.
>> Well anyways, I need it to be able to communicate with the people I 
>> am working with for this class to work out.
>> It has to work out because I somehow made it through visual basic one 
>> even though I can only do limited things with visual studio, and my 
>> college is switching to C-sharp next semester. That means I will be a 
>> semester behind if I don't pass this class because I will have to 
>> start over again with C-sharp. What is going to happen as things get 
>> more complicated, and I have fewer and fewer tools to communicate 
>> because there is no terminology for anything I want to say?  (fb> 
>> Feel free to forward them this email if you think it helps, or let 
>> your instructor talk to me. I've been in this situation in the past 
>> and at least your professor, if he teaches programming, should be able to
understand this story.
>> 
>> I have to say something because they think I'm just being stubborn 
>> and don't want to try a new way that could work. I also explained 
>> that I don't think using the flow panel to position controls will 
>> work, but was told that I have to try so I will know how to do things 
>> multiple ways. (fb> There's not a lot wrong with a flowLayout panel, 
>> in fact, I think it might help you out with the design part of your
course.
>> That sounds nice, but there is something in that exchange that I want 
>> to say, which I know what in my mind, but I don't know how to say it in
words.
>> For example, I will s
>> ay I don't think it will work. You will say why not? I will say I 
>> don't know, and then you will assume that I have no reason and that I 
>> just don't want to try it. The only way I can think of to say it is 
>> to imagine that I am an iPhone, and you are asking me to run android. 
>> I can't do it because it just won't work. However, I have a feeling 
>> that would not make sense to the people I'm working with. (fb) How 
>> about you try to tell me, a fellow blind since birth programmer, why 
>> you think a flowLayout panel wouldn't work for you? I am not really 
>> seeing the problem either but I'm not saying I don't believe you. I 
>> just don't see the wall you are running into so to speak, can you point
it out to me?
>> 
>> If you would give me some suggestions on how I can communicate 
>> better, that would be great. Thank you. (fb) I've done my best, I 
>> hope you can use some of this info. Feel free to reach out to me on 
>> or off list if something is unclear.
>> 
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Florian
>> 
>> 2016-10-08 13:15 GMT+02:00, George Bell <george at techno-vision.co.uk>:
>>> Hi Sabra,
>>> 
>>> Although list owner and moderator, I'm not actually a programmer, 
>>> but my day to day work brings me in immediate contact with those who 
>>> do write software.
>>> Since two very close associates are blind and screen reader users, I 
>>> occasionally find myself looking at their screens with Skype 
>>> providing as good a verbal description as I can.
>>> 
>>> There are two things I often suggest to sighted developers.
>>> 
>>> First, run the application without a mouse.  Many think this is 
>>> simply a requirement for blind users, but in fact it is quite easy 
>>> to show how many sighted users find using the keyboard quicker than 
>>> using a mouse.  You want to print something?  What is quicker?  Take 
>>> your hand off the keyboard to get hold of the mouse. Mouse point to 
>>> the file menu and click, mouse down to Print and click.  Or simply Ctrl
+ p?
>>> 
>>> Ironically, I'm seeing many computer magazines extolling the 
>>> benefits of using keystrokes instead of the mouse, when tends to prove
my point.
>>> 
>>> Second takes a little more explaining, and is really simply an 
>>> extension of what a good programmer should be doing.  That is adding 
>>> comments to program code, so that others will know what the Code is 
>>> supposed to do.  But in this case, it is simply adding a label to an 
>>> element.
>>> 
>>> The principal is very much like adding Alt Text to a graphic.  One 
>>> of my jobs is to author Help files for applications, where I am a 
>>> great believer is adding screen shots.  If I did not perform the 
>>> very simple task of adding Alt Text, all a screen reader users would 
>>> hear at best, would be "Graphic", or at worst be met with total 
>>> silence.  Ironically I often see that screen tips have been added, 
>>> which appear if the mouse is hovered over something, but that is not the
answer here.
>>> 
>>> So, when writing code, and for example displaying a button, it only 
>>> takes seconds to add a label description.
>>> 
>>> I could continue with aspects like ensuring that as you tab round a 
>>> dialog box, you are moving in a logical sequence, and give you 
>>> examples of major software products where this just doesn't happen.
>>> However, I'd end up writing a book.
>>> 
>>> George Bell.
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: program-l-bounce at freelists.org 
>>> [mailto:program-l-bounce at freelists.org]
>>> On Behalf Of Sabra Ewing
>>> Sent: 07 October 2016 22:28
>>> To: program-l at freelists.org
>>> Subject: [program-l] Communication with people who don't use screen 
>>> readers
>>> 
>>> I am in a visual basic class that uses visual studio. Before we 
>>> start, note that I have been blind since birth. I know nothing about 
>>> how sighted people use the computer apart from the fact that their 
>>> icons look like pictures and they click on them with a mouse. My 
>>> problem is that even though Visual studio is completely accessible, 
>>> I don't have any resources to know how to work it and it is not very 
>>> intuitive. I have been working with my professor and several other 
>>> people to try to work something out, but they don't know a lot about 
>>> screen readers. I explained that optimally, I should be able to work 
>>> Visual Studio myself if I could just know how, but they seem to 
>>> think that I can't do it because it is too complicated, not because 
>>> I lack the appropriate resources. It was suggested that I would have 
>>> an assistant click on things for me and I will tell them what to 
>>> click on. I explained it that that wasn't going to work, and they 
>>> thought that it is because I am too independent and don't w
>>>   ant to do it, but that isn't it. At this point, I am willing to do 
>>> anything to get through the class, but I really don't think it would 
>>> work. I could not tell a sighted person to do something that I know 
>>> how to do like edit a worksheet and XL or put a header in a word 
>>> document. So if I can't tell you how to do basic things on the 
>>> computer using a mouse, how can I tell you how to use a barely 
>>> familiar piece of software? They say it would be easy though and I 
>>> would just tell them what to click on, but I can't do that, but I 
>>> can't explain why to somebody who does not know a lot about screen 
>>> readers. My professor says that my assistant would not know anything 
>>> about visual studio so I couldn't use them to cheat on a test, so 
>>> that means I couldn't just say something like, go to data tools or 
>>> rename the table.
>>> The only way I can think of it to make that work is have a list of 
>>> things I want to do, followed by a description of how to do it with 
>>> the mouse, and I would just have to memorize  ea  ch description, 
>>> but that would be very difficult, and if the description did not 
>>> work for my assistant, the only thing I would be able to do is just
repeat it.
>>> My professor said that I could have the office for students with 
>>> disabilities produce a tactile picture of the screen. If there is a 
>>> way to make that work, I would try it, but I don't know how. I don't 
>>> know how the picture would fit on one page, and even though pages 
>>> could be stuck together, it would start to get too big for me to read.
>>> Plus the screen changes all the time. Even my cited classmates seem 
>>> to think that if I know where something is on the screen, that will 
>>> help, but these computers are not touchscreen. I don't know how I 
>>> would remember that though. For example, if you put a dot on a page, 
>>> take the page away, and give me a blank page and the dot, I will not 
>>> be able to put my dot in the same place no matter how many times I 
>>> look at it. On my phone, I know where things are on the corners of 
>>> the screen after kee  ping  everything in the same place for four 
>>> years, but I was thinking about this, and I really have no idea 
>>> about the location of most of the things on my screen. If I need to 
>>> go to an app, I flick to the folder where it is, tap on that folder, 
>>> and go to the page where it is located and then flick until I find 
>>> it. If I can't do that because it is being really elusive, then I 
>>> just asked Siri to open it. I can type on a touchscreen keyboard 
>>> though, so that has to mean I know where the letters are on the 
>>> screen somehow, but I don't know how that is. That aside, even if I 
>>> could somehow figure out how to know where things are on the screen, 
>>> I don't know how I would click on it. I can't use the mouse, but I 
>>> can't explain to people why that is. They say if I know where it is, 
>>> then I should be able to point at it with the mouse.
>>> Maybe a picture of the screen would be different, but I can't read a 
>>> tactile nap, and I feel like that ups the risk factor. They tried 
>>> for years in school to teach me us
>>>   ing a variety of methods, but it wouldn't work. The last thing I 
>>> am trying to explain is that if you tell me how to do something 
>>> based on how an icon looks such as go to the green arrow or the red 
>>> triangle, I will not be able to do it, even if you are asking me to 
>>> perform a task I already know how to complete. I understand the 
>>> concept of how an icon can be a picture, and how excited person 
>>> clicks on that picture to do something, but I cannot match up the 
>>> pictures they use with what I'm doing. This is not just becoming a
problem working the software.
>>> It is becoming a problem with learning the material. For example, I 
>>> was trying to learn to create an error provider control. I did, and 
>>> there was supposedly an error message flashing when I typed in 
>>> something in valid, but if someone had not told me, I would not have 
>>> known that. If I had been using the program, all I would have known 
>>> is that it wouldn't let me move onto the next text box for some 
>>> reason. I was told to put something on  th  ere called a status bar 
>>> strip as well, but it didn't do anything. They also say that jaws 
>>> has a problem because they want to change the text of a button 
>>> without changing the name. For example, they will place a button 
>>> that is automatically named button one, then go to the text property 
>>> and change that to insert or whatever it should be. But when I do 
>>> that, it just says button one, button  two, and so forth. In order 
>>> to be able to use the buttons, I have to change the name so it 
>>> matches up with the text. I don't know exactly what this means, but 
>>> I'm assuming there is probably a picture of a button like maybe an 
>>> elevator button, and there is text next to it.
>>> Also, when I put a text box, I also have to put a label, but that 
>>> doesn't make sense because the text box is already labeled. It is 
>>> automatically labeled text box one when you place it. All I can 
>>> figure is that sighted people can't see the label for some reason or 
>>> maybe they need two of them.
>>> Well anyways, I need it to be able
>>>  to  communicate with the people I am working with for this class to 
>>> work out.. It has to work out because I somehow made it through 
>>> visual basic one even though I can only do limited things with 
>>> visual studio, and my college is switching to C-sharp next semester. 
>>> That means I will be a semester behind if I don't pass this class 
>>> because I will have to start over again with C-sharp. What is going 
>>> to happen as things get more complicated, and I have fewer and fewer 
>>> tools to communicate because there is no terminology for anything I 
>>> want to say? I have to say something because they think I'm just 
>>> being stubborn and don't want to try a new way that could work. I 
>>> also explained that I don't think using the flow panel to position 
>>> controls will work, but was told that I have to try so I will know 
>>> how to do things multiple ways. That sounds nice, but there is 
>>> something in that exchange that I want to say, which I know what in 
>>> my mind, but I don't know how to say it in words. For example, I  
>>> will s  ay I don't think it will work. You will say why not? I will 
>>> say I don't know, and then you will assume that I have no reason and 
>>> that I just don't want to try it. The only way I can think of to say 
>>> it is to imagine that I am an iPhone, and you are asking me to run 
>>> android. I can't do it because it just won't work. However, I have a 
>>> feeling that would not make sense to the people I'm working with. If 
>>> you would give me some suggestions on how I can communicate better, 
>>> that would be great. Thank you.
>>> 
>>> Sabra Ewing** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following
>>> link:-
>>> ** [mailto:program-l-request at freelists.org?subject=unsubscribe]
>>> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
>>> ** program-l-request at freelists.org
>>> ** and in the Subject line type
>>> ** unsubscribe
>>> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
>>> ** immediately-following link:-
>>> ** [mailto:program-l-request at freelists.org?subject=faq]
>>> ** or send a message, to
>>> ** program-l-request at freelists.org with the Subject:- faq
>>> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
>>> ** [mailto:program-l-request at freelists.org?subject=unsubscribe]
>>> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
>>> ** program-l-request at freelists.org
>>> ** and in the Subject line type
>>> ** unsubscribe
>>> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
>>> ** immediately-following link:-
>>> ** [mailto:program-l-request at freelists.org?subject=faq]
>>> ** or send a message, to
>>> ** program-l-request at freelists.org with the Subject:- faq
>> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
>> ** [mailto:program-l-request at freelists.org?subject=unsubscribe]
>> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
>> ** program-l-request at freelists.org
>> ** and in the Subject line type
>> ** unsubscribe
>> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
>> ** immediately-following link:-
>> ** [mailto:program-l-request at freelists.org?subject=faq]
>> ** or send a message, to
>> ** program-l-request at freelists.org with the Subject:- faq
>> 
>> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
>> ** [mailto:program-l-request at freelists.org?subject=unsubscribe]
>> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
>> ** program-l-request at freelists.org
>> ** and in the Subject line type
>> ** unsubscribe
>> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
>> ** immediately-following link:-
>> ** [mailto:program-l-request at freelists.org?subject=faq]
>> ** or send a message, to
>> ** program-l-request at freelists.org with the Subject:- faq
> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
> ** [mailto:program-l-request at freelists.org?subject=unsubscribe]
> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
> ** program-l-request at freelists.org
> ** and in the Subject line type
> ** unsubscribe
> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
> ** immediately-following link:-
> ** [mailto:program-l-request at freelists.org?subject=faq]
> ** or send a message, to
> ** program-l-request at freelists.org with the Subject:- faq
** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
** [mailto:program-l-request at freelists.org?subject=unsubscribe]
** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
** program-l-request at freelists.org
** and in the Subject line type
** unsubscribe
** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
** immediately-following link:-
** [mailto:program-l-request at freelists.org?subject=faq]
** or send a message, to
** program-l-request at freelists.org with the Subject:- faq