[nfbcs] [program-l] Re: Communication with people who don't use screen readers
Sabra Ewing
sabra1023 at gmail.com
Sun Oct 9 15:20:38 UTC 2016
I suppose I will say this one more time. The software is completely accessible. This is visual studio we are talking about. Please read the message. I'm not going to use a reader for software that is completely accessible because nobody cares that I can't work it. I have already explained why I can't tell a reader what to click on. That will not help me understand how the software works. And again, one more time. I am majoring in computer information systems. Computer information systems. Therefore, the issues that will be important to a software engineer are not important to me. I never imagined that actual blind people would tell me to use a reader to work software that is completely accessible and that excess ability doesn't matter. It's OK though. I have found someone who is willing to work with me who will show me how to work the software.
Sabra Ewing
Sabra Ewing
> On Oct 9, 2016, at 10:11 AM, Steve Jacobson via nfbcs <nfbcs at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>
> Sabra,
>
> Since your messages have started threads on both program-l and NFBCS, I am
> copying both lists on my response. I have a different take on this than
> some. I am not dealing with any legal requirements here, though.
>
> Over the years, I have had to take courses as part of my job. What I have
> found to work best is to start out taking the courses with a reader. In
> other words, I have made a point to learn what the class is being taught
> without dealing with accessibility issues all at once. The fact is that to
> some degree, the issues you are facing are issues that will be there on the
> job. Schools are required to address accessibility, even if they don't
> always do it well, but many workplaces do not have to address accessibility,
> at least not to the same degree.
>
> What I have found is that if I understand how the software works for a
> sighted person, even if it means they have to do a lot of the clicking at
> first, I have a much easier time seeing how accessibility alternatives can
> work. I have found that as I learned, I was able to gradually find
> accessible means of doing the same thing and becoming more and more
> independent in the course.
>
> There are probably things that you can tell your professor that could help,
> but some of what you are describing would require such a change for the
> professor that it seems unlikely that the change will be made soon enough to
> benefit you. Working with a reader could address that gap to some degree.
>
> There are sometimes advantages in learning software that you can't use.
> There was a point in my job when I had to make choices about which reporting
> software would be used for a project. I was not the one using it, but I was
> the one deciding which was the best. I had to understand the alternatives
> to make that decision even though I couldn't use it. Learning how to use it
> with a reader allowed me to understand the software well enough to make that
> choice. It may sound very trite, but remember you are in the class to learn
> what the professor has to teach, not to learn accessibility alternatives, so
> figuring out how best to learn the course content is to some degree separate
> from accessibility. I am not saying that alternative exercises and such
> might not be reasonable sometimes, nor am I saying that talking to the
> professor is not a good idea. Rather, I am just saying that learning the
> content and then working accessibility in has worked far better for me than
> trying to take a crash course in accessibility at the outset while getting
> behind in the class.
>
> Good luck, and I hope everything works out for you.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: program-l-bounce at freelists.org [mailto:program-l-bounce at freelists.org]
> On Behalf Of Sabra Ewing
> Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2016 12:59 PM
> To: program-l at freelists.org
> Subject: [program-l] Re: Communication with people who don't use screen
> readers
>
> I do understand how knowing what the screen looks like would make it easier
> to communicate with sighted people, but it would be really hard. It would be
> so difficult that I would have to leave this class, and go through a
> specialized training course that would last one or two semesters that is
> specifically geared toward knowing what the screen looks like. Even with
> that, I don't know how it would work because I can't understand things that
> people say are simple like the layout of a grocery store. I mean, I know
> simple things like that the frozen food is at the back of the store, but
> it's not the same. For some reason, I understand the streets outside a lot
> better. I guess what I'm saying is that I have found some way to travel even
> though I don't understand where anything is, so there must be someway for me
> to understand what the screen looks like, but focusing on that and focusing
> on trying to get through this class at the same time would be too much. This
> semester has already start ed. It is actually in full swing and I am
> already behind. Everyone else is already taken their first exam, but we had
> to doing mine because I can't even control the software yet. I am majoring
> in computer information systems, not computer science, so I'm sure I could
> find something that would not rely on me knowing what the screen looks like.
> Hey coordinate system is really easy for me to understand, and I can use it
> for traveling a lot better than I can use a map, so maybe I could use that
> to know when the screen looks like in a simplified way, but I really have to
> get through this class.
>
> Sabra Ewing
>
>>> On Oct 8, 2016, at 8:04 AM, Florian Beijers <florianbeijers at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi David,
>>
>> I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. Especially in
>> Sabra's case since I think they are having a hard time visualizing how
>> a screen, or anythin really, looks to a sighted person, it sounds to
>> me like the effort would be far higher than the potential gain.
>> Just curious though, why do you think in this situation knowing what
>> the screen looks like is beneficial, given the fact they want to use a
>> screen reader to control the program? Is it pure a matter of having a
>> shared vocabulary about the program with their sighted peers?
>> I notice that apart from the standard Windows conventions (title bar,
>> menubar below, toolbar below that and at the bottom a status bar), I
>> tend not to know what a program looks like either and don't really
>> find it easy to care all that much. is it different for you?
>>
>> Florian
>>
>>
>> 2016-10-08 14:42 GMT+02:00, David Reynolds <david at dkreynolds.plus.com>:
>>> Florian,
>>>
>>> I certainly agree with a great deal of what you say, but essentially,
>>> I think it important that as visually impaired developers, it is
>>> important to understand what the screen does like. There is no
>>> substitute for time spent with a sympathetic listener on this one
>>> provided they have the relevant knowledge and a desire to help.
>>>
>>> David.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: program-l-bounce at freelists.org
>>> [mailto:program-l-bounce at freelists.org]
>>> On Behalf Of Florian Beijers
>>> Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2016 12:58 PM
>>> To: program-l at freelists.org
>>> Subject: [program-l] Re: Communication with people who don't use
>>> screen readers
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I am going to paste your message here again. In the text, at the end
>>> of your lines, I will add my comments and I will always start them
>>> with (fb). That way, you can easily find them using JAWS find, NVDA
>>> find or any other finding technique you are familiar with.
>>> Here we go :)
>>>
>>> I am in a visual basic class that uses visual studio. Before we
>>> start, note that I have been blind since birth. I know nothing about
>>> how sighted people use the computer apart from the fact that their
>>> icons look like pictures and they click on them with a mouse. (fb)
>>> This is basically correct, often what a screen reader tells you can
>>> either be a visible label of text on a control that sighted people
>>> see as well, or it is an icon that, behind the scenes as it were,
>>> gets sent to your screenreader while the sighted people only see an
>>> icon of, for example, an envelope to send email, or a play button to set
> something in motion.
>>>
>>> My problem is that even though Visual studio is completely
>>> accessible, I don't have any resources to know how to work it and it
>>> is not very intuitive. I have been working with my professor and
>>> several other people to try to work something out, but they don't know a
> lot about screen readers.
>>> (fb) Any IDE (integrated development environment) will have some
>>> complexity going on when you're not used to such programs. When you
>>> are using a textbook to work through, the book will often reference
>>> going to windows, toolbars or icons because that's what sighted users
>>> tend to be familiar with. However, for you that is obviously not
>>> going to fly. How about you and I sit down on Skype some time to go
>>> over some of Visual Studio's controls and how you can best access
>>> them using your screen reader? Are you familiar with Skype?
>>>
>>>
>>> I explained that optimally, I should be able to work Visual Studio
>>> myself if I could just know how, but they seem to think that I can't
>>> do it because it is too complicated, not because I lack the
>>> appropriate resources. (fb) You need to nip this in the bud as soon
>>> as possible. You are supposed to do the class, not someone else who
>>> you tell what to do. How are you expected to actually use the skills
>>> you have learned later on if you always need someone to help you?
>>>
>>> It was suggested that I would have an assistant click on things for
>>> me and I will tell them what to click on. I explained it that that
>>> wasn't going to work, and they thought that it is because I am too
>>> independent and don't w ant to do it, but that isn't it. At this
>>> point, I am willing to do anything to get through the class, but I
>>> really don't think it would work. I could not tell a sighted person
>>> to do something that I know how to do like edit a worksheet and XL or
>>> put a header in a word document. So if I can't tell you how to do
>>> basic things on the computer using a mouse, how can I tell you how to
>>> use a barely familiar piece of software? (fb) You can't , because
>>> for all intents and purposes you are working with a different interface
> than they are.
>>> Often icons get translated to bits of text for you. This makes the
>>> program usable by you, but you won't know how the ivsual
>>> representation looks on the screen so you can't tell someone what
>>> icon to click unless you memorize all of them, which is quite the chore
> and not at all useful to you.
>>>
>>> They say it would be easy though and I would just tell them what to
>>> click on, but I can't do that, but I can't explain why to somebody
>>> who does not know a lot about screen readers. (fb) Simple. Tell them
>>> that you are not receiving an item's location , nor the way it looks,
>>> when going through a user interface with a screenreader. You are only
>>> receiving the so-called accessible name of the item, which often
>>> doesn't match up with what a sighted user sees on the screen. When
>>> you hear you have landed on the Build option in the toolbar, you
>>> don't know where that toolbar is, where the icon is and what the icon
>>> looks like. Therefore there is no way for you to translate what you
>>> are hearing into what they are seeing without significant work you eally
> don't need to do.
>>>
>>>
>>> My professor says that my assistant would not know anything about
>>> visual studio so I couldn't use them to cheat on a test, so that
>>> means I couldn't just say something like, go to data tools or rename
>>> the table. The only way I can think of it to make that work is have a
>>> list of things I want to do, followed by a description of how to do
>>> it with the mouse, and I would just have to memorize ea ch
>>> description, but that would be very difficult, and if the description
>>> did not work for my assistant, the only thing I would be able to do
>>> is just repeat it. (fb> You are right, this is impractical at best.
>>> My professor said that I could have the office for students with
>>> disabilities produce a tactile picture of the screen. If there is a
>>> way to make that work, I would try it, but I don't know how. I don't
>>> know how the picture would fit on one page, and even though pages
>>> could be stuck together, it would start to get too big for me to read.
>>> Plus the screen changes all the time. (fb> This might work if your
>>> screen would be static, but this is by no means the case in visual
>>> studio. Again, this wouldn't help you because you don't need to know
>>> what the screen looks like to be able to work with it.
>>>
>>> Even my cited classmates seem to think that if I know where something
>>> is on the screen, that will help, but these computers are not
>>> touchscreen. (fb) Even if they were, it would be quite tricky to use
>>> VS from just a touch screen I'm afraid.
>>> I don't know how I would remember that though. For example, if you
>>> put a dot on a page, take the page away, and give me a blank page and
>>> the dot, I will not be able to put my dot in the same place no matter
>>> how many times I look at it. (fb) This is called spacial orientation
>>> and is tricky for a lot of blind people. Most people can give an
>>> aproximation of where the dot is, but usually no more than that and some
> can't get it done at all.
>>> On my phone, I know where things are on the corners of the screen
>>> after keeping everything in the same place for four years, but I was
>>> thinking about this, and I really have no idea about the location of
>>> most of the things on my screen. If I need to go to an app, I flick
>>> to the folder where it is, tap on that folder, and go to the page
>>> where it is located and then flick until I find it. (fb) And many
>>> others with you
>>> :)
>>> If I can't do that because it is being really elusive, then I just
>>> asked Siri to open it. I can type on a touchscreen keyboard though,
>>> so that has to mean I know where the letters are on the screen
>>> somehow, but I don't know how that is. (fb) it's something called
>>> muscle memory. You do it so often that your thumb knows where the
>>> letters are, even if you don't consciously know it yourself.
>>>
>>> That aside, even if I could somehow figure out how to know where
>>> things are on the screen, I don't know how I would click on it. I
>>> can't use the mouse, but I can't explain to people why that is. They
>>> say if I know where it is, then I should be able to point at it with
>>> the mouse. (fb) It sounds to me the people you are working with are
>>> missing the rather important concept that you aren't actually able to
>>> use your eyes to see the screen, you are using a screen reader which
>>> parses the screen for you into a format you can sequentially go
>>> through, even if you can't see the screen. That is the whole point of
>>> a screen reader :) You can't use a mouse because you can't see where your
> mouse is in relation to other objects on screen.
>>>
>>> Maybe a picture of the screen would be different, but I can't read a
>>> tactile nap, and I feel like that ups the risk factor. They tried for
>>> years in school to teach me us ing a variety of methods, but it
>>> wouldn't work. (fb) Again, it sounds to me you're not very good at
>>> spacial orientation, which is fine.
>>> Loads of people aren't and you don't need to be to be able to program.
>>>
>>> The last thing I am trying to explain is that if you tell me how to
>>> do something based on how an icon looks such as go to the green arrow
>>> or the red triangle, I will not be able to do it, even if you are
>>> asking me to perform a task I already know how to complete. (fb) Of
>>> course not, you have no idea what the green arrow stands for or where
>>> it is so you can't use that kind of instruction.
>>> I understand the concept of how an icon can be a picture, and how
>>> excited person clicks on that picture to do something, but I cannot
>>> match up the pictures they use with what I'm doing. This is not just
>>> becoming a problem working the software. It is becoming a problem with
> learning the material.
>>> For example, I was trying to learn to create an error provider
>>> control. I did, and there was supposedly an error message flashing
>>> when I typed in something in valid, but if someone had not told me, I
>>> would not have known that. (fb) What you are running into there is an
> accessibility problem.
>>> There is ways of making your screen reader read out that error
>>> message when it flashes so you are aware of it, you are not supposed
>>> to know what the error is if it only flashes at you on screen. This
>>> is not a problem with you, its an issue with either that control,
>>> your screen reader or something else internal.
>>>
>>>
>>> If I had been using the program, all I would have known is that it
>>> wouldn't let me move onto the next text box for some reason. I was
>>> told to put something on th ere called a status bar strip as well,
>>> but it didn't do anything.
>>> (fb) It most likely did, a status bar strip, for sighted people, is a
>>> kind of rectangular area on the bottom of the screen that holds
>>> status information. For example the page number of your current page
>>> in Word lives down there. Your screenreader will have a hotkey to
>>> read that status bar aloud for you, I don't know what the hotkey is
>>> I'm afraid, I haven't used JAWS in a long time, but I can certainly find
> out for you.
>>>
>>> They also say that jaws has a problem because they want to change the
>>> text of a button without changing the name. For example, they will
>>> place a button that is automatically named button one, then go to the
>>> text property and change that to insert or whatever it should be. But
>>> when I do that, it just says button one, button two, and so forth.
>>> In order to be able to use the buttons, I have to change the name so
>>> it matches up with the text. I don't know exactly what this means,
>>> but I'm assuming there is probably a picture of a button like maybe an
> elevator button, and there is text next to it.
>>> (fb) This is a bit of a tricky one to explain. Before you have
>>> compiled your program, so, when you are still in what's called the
>>> Forms designer, JAWS will read the programmatic name of the control.
>>> This would be button1 if you don't change it, and is indeed
>>> controlled by the name property. This is the name you use to , in
>>> your program, refer to that button, but the sighted people are not
>>> seeing this name visually. They see the text property on that
>>> button. This is very similar to you hearing a control's name, where a
>>> sighted person sees its icon. After you have compiled your program,
>>> JAWS should instead use the button's text property so you will hear
>>> it as well, but this doesn't happen yet at design time. That's where
>>> your error in translation is coming from
>>> :)
>>>
>>> Also, when I put a text box, I also have to put a label, but that
>>> doesn't make sense because the text box is already labeled. It is
>>> automatically labeled text box one when you place it. (fb) No, it is
>>> automatically named, but not labeled, textbox1 when you create it.
>>> JAWS will read this name at design time, and I think if there's no
>>> associated label for JAWS after the program is compiled, it wil still
>>> read
>>> textbox1 because there's nothing else for it to read. This is another
>>> little accessibility gotcha.
>>>
>>> All I can figure is that sighted people can't see the label for some
>>> reason or maybe they need two of them. (fb) haha :) The sighted
>>> people are not seeing that label, you are correct.
>>> Well anyways, I need it to be able to communicate with the people I
>>> am working with for this class to work out.
>>> It has to work out because I somehow made it through visual basic one
>>> even though I can only do limited things with visual studio, and my
>>> college is switching to C-sharp next semester. That means I will be a
>>> semester behind if I don't pass this class because I will have to
>>> start over again with C-sharp. What is going to happen as things get
>>> more complicated, and I have fewer and fewer tools to communicate
>>> because there is no terminology for anything I want to say? (fb>
>>> Feel free to forward them this email if you think it helps, or let
>>> your instructor talk to me. I've been in this situation in the past
>>> and at least your professor, if he teaches programming, should be able to
> understand this story.
>>>
>>> I have to say something because they think I'm just being stubborn
>>> and don't want to try a new way that could work. I also explained
>>> that I don't think using the flow panel to position controls will
>>> work, but was told that I have to try so I will know how to do things
>>> multiple ways. (fb> There's not a lot wrong with a flowLayout panel,
>>> in fact, I think it might help you out with the design part of your
> course.
>>> That sounds nice, but there is something in that exchange that I want
>>> to say, which I know what in my mind, but I don't know how to say it in
> words.
>>> For example, I will s
>>> ay I don't think it will work. You will say why not? I will say I
>>> don't know, and then you will assume that I have no reason and that I
>>> just don't want to try it. The only way I can think of to say it is
>>> to imagine that I am an iPhone, and you are asking me to run android.
>>> I can't do it because it just won't work. However, I have a feeling
>>> that would not make sense to the people I'm working with. (fb) How
>>> about you try to tell me, a fellow blind since birth programmer, why
>>> you think a flowLayout panel wouldn't work for you? I am not really
>>> seeing the problem either but I'm not saying I don't believe you. I
>>> just don't see the wall you are running into so to speak, can you point
> it out to me?
>>>
>>> If you would give me some suggestions on how I can communicate
>>> better, that would be great. Thank you. (fb) I've done my best, I
>>> hope you can use some of this info. Feel free to reach out to me on
>>> or off list if something is unclear.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Florian
>>>
>>> 2016-10-08 13:15 GMT+02:00, George Bell <george at techno-vision.co.uk>:
>>>> Hi Sabra,
>>>>
>>>> Although list owner and moderator, I'm not actually a programmer,
>>>> but my day to day work brings me in immediate contact with those who
>>>> do write software.
>>>> Since two very close associates are blind and screen reader users, I
>>>> occasionally find myself looking at their screens with Skype
>>>> providing as good a verbal description as I can.
>>>>
>>>> There are two things I often suggest to sighted developers.
>>>>
>>>> First, run the application without a mouse. Many think this is
>>>> simply a requirement for blind users, but in fact it is quite easy
>>>> to show how many sighted users find using the keyboard quicker than
>>>> using a mouse. You want to print something? What is quicker? Take
>>>> your hand off the keyboard to get hold of the mouse. Mouse point to
>>>> the file menu and click, mouse down to Print and click. Or simply Ctrl
> + p?
>>>>
>>>> Ironically, I'm seeing many computer magazines extolling the
>>>> benefits of using keystrokes instead of the mouse, when tends to prove
> my point.
>>>>
>>>> Second takes a little more explaining, and is really simply an
>>>> extension of what a good programmer should be doing. That is adding
>>>> comments to program code, so that others will know what the Code is
>>>> supposed to do. But in this case, it is simply adding a label to an
>>>> element.
>>>>
>>>> The principal is very much like adding Alt Text to a graphic. One
>>>> of my jobs is to author Help files for applications, where I am a
>>>> great believer is adding screen shots. If I did not perform the
>>>> very simple task of adding Alt Text, all a screen reader users would
>>>> hear at best, would be "Graphic", or at worst be met with total
>>>> silence. Ironically I often see that screen tips have been added,
>>>> which appear if the mouse is hovered over something, but that is not the
> answer here.
>>>>
>>>> So, when writing code, and for example displaying a button, it only
>>>> takes seconds to add a label description.
>>>>
>>>> I could continue with aspects like ensuring that as you tab round a
>>>> dialog box, you are moving in a logical sequence, and give you
>>>> examples of major software products where this just doesn't happen.
>>>> However, I'd end up writing a book.
>>>>
>>>> George Bell.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: program-l-bounce at freelists.org
>>>> [mailto:program-l-bounce at freelists.org]
>>>> On Behalf Of Sabra Ewing
>>>> Sent: 07 October 2016 22:28
>>>> To: program-l at freelists.org
>>>> Subject: [program-l] Communication with people who don't use screen
>>>> readers
>>>>
>>>> I am in a visual basic class that uses visual studio. Before we
>>>> start, note that I have been blind since birth. I know nothing about
>>>> how sighted people use the computer apart from the fact that their
>>>> icons look like pictures and they click on them with a mouse. My
>>>> problem is that even though Visual studio is completely accessible,
>>>> I don't have any resources to know how to work it and it is not very
>>>> intuitive. I have been working with my professor and several other
>>>> people to try to work something out, but they don't know a lot about
>>>> screen readers. I explained that optimally, I should be able to work
>>>> Visual Studio myself if I could just know how, but they seem to
>>>> think that I can't do it because it is too complicated, not because
>>>> I lack the appropriate resources. It was suggested that I would have
>>>> an assistant click on things for me and I will tell them what to
>>>> click on. I explained it that that wasn't going to work, and they
>>>> thought that it is because I am too independent and don't w
>>>> ant to do it, but that isn't it. At this point, I am willing to do
>>>> anything to get through the class, but I really don't think it would
>>>> work. I could not tell a sighted person to do something that I know
>>>> how to do like edit a worksheet and XL or put a header in a word
>>>> document. So if I can't tell you how to do basic things on the
>>>> computer using a mouse, how can I tell you how to use a barely
>>>> familiar piece of software? They say it would be easy though and I
>>>> would just tell them what to click on, but I can't do that, but I
>>>> can't explain why to somebody who does not know a lot about screen
>>>> readers. My professor says that my assistant would not know anything
>>>> about visual studio so I couldn't use them to cheat on a test, so
>>>> that means I couldn't just say something like, go to data tools or
>>>> rename the table.
>>>> The only way I can think of it to make that work is have a list of
>>>> things I want to do, followed by a description of how to do it with
>>>> the mouse, and I would just have to memorize ea ch description,
>>>> but that would be very difficult, and if the description did not
>>>> work for my assistant, the only thing I would be able to do is just
> repeat it.
>>>> My professor said that I could have the office for students with
>>>> disabilities produce a tactile picture of the screen. If there is a
>>>> way to make that work, I would try it, but I don't know how. I don't
>>>> know how the picture would fit on one page, and even though pages
>>>> could be stuck together, it would start to get too big for me to read.
>>>> Plus the screen changes all the time. Even my cited classmates seem
>>>> to think that if I know where something is on the screen, that will
>>>> help, but these computers are not touchscreen. I don't know how I
>>>> would remember that though. For example, if you put a dot on a page,
>>>> take the page away, and give me a blank page and the dot, I will not
>>>> be able to put my dot in the same place no matter how many times I
>>>> look at it. On my phone, I know where things are on the corners of
>>>> the screen after kee ping everything in the same place for four
>>>> years, but I was thinking about this, and I really have no idea
>>>> about the location of most of the things on my screen. If I need to
>>>> go to an app, I flick to the folder where it is, tap on that folder,
>>>> and go to the page where it is located and then flick until I find
>>>> it. If I can't do that because it is being really elusive, then I
>>>> just asked Siri to open it. I can type on a touchscreen keyboard
>>>> though, so that has to mean I know where the letters are on the
>>>> screen somehow, but I don't know how that is. That aside, even if I
>>>> could somehow figure out how to know where things are on the screen,
>>>> I don't know how I would click on it. I can't use the mouse, but I
>>>> can't explain to people why that is. They say if I know where it is,
>>>> then I should be able to point at it with the mouse.
>>>> Maybe a picture of the screen would be different, but I can't read a
>>>> tactile nap, and I feel like that ups the risk factor. They tried
>>>> for years in school to teach me us
>>>> ing a variety of methods, but it wouldn't work. The last thing I
>>>> am trying to explain is that if you tell me how to do something
>>>> based on how an icon looks such as go to the green arrow or the red
>>>> triangle, I will not be able to do it, even if you are asking me to
>>>> perform a task I already know how to complete. I understand the
>>>> concept of how an icon can be a picture, and how excited person
>>>> clicks on that picture to do something, but I cannot match up the
>>>> pictures they use with what I'm doing. This is not just becoming a
> problem working the software.
>>>> It is becoming a problem with learning the material. For example, I
>>>> was trying to learn to create an error provider control. I did, and
>>>> there was supposedly an error message flashing when I typed in
>>>> something in valid, but if someone had not told me, I would not have
>>>> known that. If I had been using the program, all I would have known
>>>> is that it wouldn't let me move onto the next text box for some
>>>> reason. I was told to put something on th ere called a status bar
>>>> strip as well, but it didn't do anything. They also say that jaws
>>>> has a problem because they want to change the text of a button
>>>> without changing the name. For example, they will place a button
>>>> that is automatically named button one, then go to the text property
>>>> and change that to insert or whatever it should be. But when I do
>>>> that, it just says button one, button two, and so forth. In order
>>>> to be able to use the buttons, I have to change the name so it
>>>> matches up with the text. I don't know exactly what this means, but
>>>> I'm assuming there is probably a picture of a button like maybe an
>>>> elevator button, and there is text next to it.
>>>> Also, when I put a text box, I also have to put a label, but that
>>>> doesn't make sense because the text box is already labeled. It is
>>>> automatically labeled text box one when you place it. All I can
>>>> figure is that sighted people can't see the label for some reason or
>>>> maybe they need two of them.
>>>> Well anyways, I need it to be able
>>>> to communicate with the people I am working with for this class to
>>>> work out.. It has to work out because I somehow made it through
>>>> visual basic one even though I can only do limited things with
>>>> visual studio, and my college is switching to C-sharp next semester.
>>>> That means I will be a semester behind if I don't pass this class
>>>> because I will have to start over again with C-sharp. What is going
>>>> to happen as things get more complicated, and I have fewer and fewer
>>>> tools to communicate because there is no terminology for anything I
>>>> want to say? I have to say something because they think I'm just
>>>> being stubborn and don't want to try a new way that could work. I
>>>> also explained that I don't think using the flow panel to position
>>>> controls will work, but was told that I have to try so I will know
>>>> how to do things multiple ways. That sounds nice, but there is
>>>> something in that exchange that I want to say, which I know what in
>>>> my mind, but I don't know how to say it in words. For example, I
>>>> will s ay I don't think it will work. You will say why not? I will
>>>> say I don't know, and then you will assume that I have no reason and
>>>> that I just don't want to try it. The only way I can think of to say
>>>> it is to imagine that I am an iPhone, and you are asking me to run
>>>> android. I can't do it because it just won't work. However, I have a
>>>> feeling that would not make sense to the people I'm working with. If
>>>> you would give me some suggestions on how I can communicate better,
>>>> that would be great. Thank you.
>>>>
>>>> Sabra Ewing** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following
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