[Ct-nfb] Can you stop using this forum for your personalopinion sand negativity

[Susan Harper]

I know nothing of any of these options that you all speak of.  As a parent
of a 6 year old who is blind and his twin who could go blind at some point,
all this discussion is incredibly important.  I don't just want the sugar
coated stuff.  I want the nitty-gritty on what it will be like, so as I
strive to educate my children, I can work to teach them about
discrimination and how to deal with it.  Let me tell you in Connecticut,
services for the blind stop working with parents and ignore their wishes
once their children reach school age.  Up until then they were great.
 Maine on the other hand allows services to blind children who are home
schooled and I am the coordinator of services for providers.  Trust me, the
school doesn't want my child, who would be a great financial burden to
them.  I have worked so hard in addition to my MS in Special Ed. to learn
how he learns.  I can't imagine, flushing him into public school.  Now that
said, keep the dialogues coming, so we all can learn.  We aren't all going
to agree, but we can respect and dialogue with each other.  Through crisis
comes change.  Through discussion, good or bad, comes education!  Keep
TALKING!

Blessings,
Sue H.

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 1:48 PM, Nathanael T. Wales <ntwales at omsoft.com>wrote:

>   Trevor,
>
> Thank you for your excellent post.  I greatly appreciate your thoughts.
>
> In the context of “equating the ignorance and discrimination surrounding
> our issue of sub-minimum wages with genocide and brutal enslavement”, I
> realize now that you are correct that drawing this comparison does strike “up
> peoples emotional alarms” and is unhelpful.  I also regret if you took what
> I was saying to point to “a sign of an impending Hitler”; I certainly did
> not intend to, and I know that Rich stated explicitly that he was not
> pointing to one.  I do, however, stand by my point that subminimum wages
> versus what the Nazis and English colonists (and many other horrific
> regimes have done and are still doing) “are both predicated upon the same
> belief that some human life is less valuable than other human life”.  The
> former is just far tamer, more acceptable, and seemingly balanced--and in
> 99% of examples portends nothing worse to come.
>
> Finally, I agree very much with your penultimate point that “...Think of
> it this way, we the blind purchase items all the time that are products of
> war and brutal labor conditions. Maybe we can think of ourselves as part of
> that puzzle...”.  I will never forget how embarrassed I was when having
> dinner with a fellow parishioner from Stratford who works on a multitude of
> social justice issues (and is a supporter of our Goodwill boycott) when
> telling him about how great Apple products are for accessibility for the
> blind and he replying that Apple products are made in sweatshops in China.
>
> Best,
> Nathanael
>
>
>  *From:* Trevor Attenberg <tattenberg at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, November 10, 2012 6:52 PM
> *To:* 'NFB of Connecticut Mailing List' <ct-nfb at nfbnet.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Ct-nfb] Can you stop using this forum for your
> personalopinion sand negativity
>
>
> Hey. I for one am glad Deb brought up the question about the ACB. While I
> myself encountered the NFB before I was aware of the ACB, many many folks
> in the NFB encouraged me and others to check out what the ACB is about.
> Like I said in my previous message, there are items that the two
> organizations agree upon, and many of us long-time federationists have good
> friends in the ACB. Many of us collaborated with ACB members or even
> participated in ACB dominated institutions. On the other hand, when you
> examine the bulk of political stances and philosophical positions taken by
> the two organizations, the contrast can be stunning.****
>
> Of course many members in either organization have not yet gotten deeply
> entrenched enough with the respective politics or blindness philosophies so
> as to take such dichotomy very seriously. Many of us are on the fence; but
> as institutions, the NFB and ACB sometimes make Dems and Reps look like
> old-time buddies. As a list serve that is supposed to represent what the
> NFB stands for and the work we do, I don’t feel we should shrug away from
> controversies that arise from  the differences we have with other
> organizations. It’s all part of the struggle.****
>
> As I’ve been a part of the NFB for over ten years now, I’m obviously
> partial to the federation’s philosophy, and I may have a skewed prospective
> on which organization is needlessly bashing the other. The research I’ve
> done on the ACB seems to reveal an organization that devotes a lot of
> literature and decision-making time towards antagonizing the NFB (this
> sound clip we heard is a small example). Justin and Nathanael can likely
> attest to this first hand. Of course I’ve met long time members on both
> sides that bemoan the fact the two organizations basically agreed to
> constantly disagree. In addition, I know folks on the NFB side that
> sometimes get really out of hand with trashing the ACB; making general
> statements that attack the personalities and lifestyles of all/most ACB
> members. None of that kind of thing is productive, and indeed the two
> organizations would do best to collaborate whenever this is philosophically
> permissible. We’re all human beings that face very similar struggles on a
> day to day basis, and thus we can probably agree to more things than we
> actually do.****
>
> ****
>
> A fairly minor example of where the two organizations disagree occurred
> during the ACB’s legal suit to make paper money tactily accessible. While I
> don’t think the NFB totally opposed the idea of tactily accessible money,
> it opposed the suit because it believed the ACB’s approach, and the
> attention it would all bring to blind people would not be helpful in making
> the blind seem like responsible and capable workers and self-managers.
> Indeed the lawsuit brought quite a bit of dubious attention to the blind
> community. We had radio and TV interviews of totally un-trained or poorly
> trained blind people that talked about how they couldn’t manage money
> altogether, or the only way they could tell their bills apart was through
> putting different denominations in totally different parts of their outfit,
> like their socks. It made me cringe. Not only have I been able to organize
> money in my own wallet since childhood, I happen to know countless examples
> of blind people that work directly with paper money as business owners,
> clerks and treasurers. As Chris alluded to, the NFB really works to evoke a
> positive visage of blindness rather than making the blind look needy and
> craving special accommodations.****
>
> Another major philosophical difference the NFB and ACB have concerns
> training. Like a number of you, I attended the Carol Center (Sorry, I’m not
> looking up how to spell it just now) in Massachusetts. While most of the
> staff at the Center were fully sighted, the blind staff/faculty I
> encountered there were ACB members, and from what I gathered, the center
> seemed to reflect an ACB philosophy. I went there in 2004 about a year
> after graduating from the NFB sponsored Louisiana Center for the Blind.
> While the brief computer training I received at the Carol center was quite
> effective (I went there for a college prep course on JAWS and Windows), the
> conditions students there faced seemed atrociously custodial. Students had
> curfews and had to get permission to walk between buildings without sited
> escort—at least at night. Attitudes towards cane use was lax at best. While
> there was O&M instruction, I rarely encountered people using canes
> otherwise, especially once training was done. All or most dining was done
> in a cafeteria, where students were asked to put aside their canes, and be
> given a sighted guide through where food was served and to a seat at a
> table. The only place at the LCB where we regularly departed with our canes
> was in the kitchen, where our hands were full of greasiness, we had gotten
> thoroughly oriented with the landscape before work, and we weren’t really
> walking anywhere beyond a couple of steps. At the Carol center by contrast,
> I was made fun of and ridiculed by  other students for my regular and
> insistent cane use. They called me MosesJ. I think they should’ve called
> me Gandhi; but I didn’t take this treatment in a really gracious or
> Gandhi-like fashion unfortunately. In addition, I saw so many students just
> sitting around complaining about their blindness, reflecting on the
> good-old days when they had sight, and anxiously anticipating some kind of
> cure. While such attitudes are understandable, especially among those that
> recently lost their sight; I was just shocked at the lack of positive input
> here. At the LCB we had people like this; but they were always helped along
> by capable and optimistic blind staff and students; and eventually the
> spells would be broken. I did meet a couple of staff members at the Carol
> Center who expressed concern over the center’s lax cane-use standards; and
> the president of the center did speak at the NFB of Massachusetts a couple
> of years ago, suggesting that the place indeed upgraded their training.
> Maybe things have changed. If not, I really wouldn’t recommend the place as
> a full-fledged adult rehabilitation option.****
>
>                 Experiences like this truly helped me develop a sense of
> the contrast different blindness-related philosophical constructs have. The
> different views people have towards blindness do really have an impact, and
> it affected me in a way I did not foresee.  ****
>
>                 Lastly, in the context of sub-minimum wages, I agree we
> are dealing with an incredibly important issue that not only impacts the
> way people perceive the blind, but also pertains to people’s livelihoods
> and ability to become active members of society. Sub-minimum wages are
> discriminatory, and make permanent second class citizens of the blind; thus
> effecting our own security. On the other hand, we really should consider
> scale in our rhetoric. While people’s ability to turn a blind eye as it
> were, and do extreme bad as well as extreme good is astonishing; equating
> the ignorance and discrimination surrounding our issue of sub-minimum wages
> with genocide and brutal enslavement is a bit over the top to say the
> least. While it may have value in an elaborate discussion geared
> exclusively towards security, social awareness, and the genesis of great
> injustice ,  it really doesn’t do us much good in this context, and will
> only strike up peoples emotional alarms. Think of it this way, we the blind
> purchase items all the time that are products of war and brutal labor
> conditions. Maybe we can think of ourselves as part of that puzzle, and not
> our condition as a sign of an impending Hitler.****
>
> Always yours,****
>
> Trevor A.                                       ****
>
>            ****
>
> ****
>
> *From:* Ct-nfb [mailto:ct-nfb-bounces at nfbnet.org] *On Behalf Of *Deb Reed
> *Sent:* Saturday, November 10, 2012 6:56 AM
> *To:* NFB of Connecticut Mailing List
> *Subject:* Re: [Ct-nfb] Can you stop using this forum for your personal
> opinionsand negativity****
>
> ****
>
> Hi Everyone,****
>
> I am not sorry that I posed my questions as that is the only way to learn
> and that I surely have done. Thanks to all who provided this information on
> two organizations I was not familiar with. I am still a new NFB member so I
> am soaking it all in.****
>
> ****
>
> On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 6:02 PM, Edward <personal.edward at gmail.com> wrote:*
> ***
>
> Hello
>
> While the negativity is not constructive, discussion of the ACB, or any
> other organization that relates to blindness, should be aloud to continue
> on
> the list.  I believe the list should be used to talk about any subject
> relating to blindness, as long as it's appropriate for all ages to read,
> and
> until such time   that the list's traffic becomes too convoluted.  It's not
> like the list has been inundated with responses, or has been too difficult
> to follow.
>
> Just my opinion,
> Edward****
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ct-nfb [mailto:ct-nfb-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sandee Kush
> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 5:50 PM
> To: 'NFB of Connecticut Mailing List'
> Subject: [Ct-nfb] Can you stop using this forum for your personal
> opinionsand negativity
>
> Those of you having the ACB discussion relative to the  HR, would it be
> possible for you to 1,  Develop a group email to converse back and forth?
> 2.  Once again, email the person directly that  you want to debate or
> whatever 3.  Create a blog
>
> I am sure I speak for many of those on the list serve.  Personally, I am
> revising my opinion of people based on their comments, developing concern
> about leadership skills and just plain bewildered that anyone thinks this
> is
> a constructive dialogue.
>
> Please do not respond to me on the List serve.
> And please...stop the "public" debate.
> Thank you.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ct-nfb [mailto:ct-nfb-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of ntwales
> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 12:19 PM
> To: ct-nfb at nfbnet.org
> Subject: Re: [Ct-nfb] FW: ACB Resolution on H.R. 3086
>
> Rich - Thank you for your excellent message.
> Chris - I couldn't disagree with you more on several points.  First,
> though,
> I should state that, like Justin, I too received a national scholarship
> from
> ACB while an undergrad and attended their national convention.  I did meet
> many pleasant, articulate, and successful members there--and most were
> pleasant and welcoming to me even though they knew clearly that I was an
> NFB
> member.  I spoke a couple of months later with President Maurer about this,
> and he was glad I went, and he showed no animosoty towards the ACB during
> our conversation.  Also before moving to Connecticut, as an NFB leader in
> California I worked closely with ACB leaders on a handful of joint issues,
> including establishing a separate rehabilitation agency for the blind and
> increasing availability of public transit, and I found everyone pleasant to
> work with and, on other matters such as the level of access to public
> rights
> of way, pleasant to disagree with.  Now:
> 1. You wrote, "I've met people at national convention who are members of
> both NFB and ACB--although Dr. Maurer [you gave him the title doctor; he
> himself does not and I endeavor not to; his brother interestingly enough
> holds a doctorate] would certainly excommunicate them if he found out."
> While President Maurer would support excommunicating these dual members, it
> isn't about him.  The NFB constitution forbids such dual membership.  This
> is an organizational constitutional matter, and I think most members would
> agree that, just like you can't be registered as a Republican and a
> Democrat, you can't be a dual member--and, as we practiced at our state
> convention, our NFB could vote to change that about our constitution if we
> ever changed our minds.
> 2. You wrote, "ACB's decision not to support HR 3086 is hardly comparable
> to
> Hitler gassing the Jews or the English exterminating Native Americans."
> While Hitler gasing the Jews (he also gased the
> disabled) and the English killing Native Americans on their face seem like
> extreme examples, they are both predicated upon the same belief that some
> human life is less valuable than other human life.  ACB deliberating to be
> silent is more properly comparable to those in Nazi Germany who remained
> silent while the Holocaust went on around them, while trains and marches of
> prisoners passed their towns and woods and churches.  How Nazi Germany rose
> to such power personally fascinates me, and maybe we've heard a small
> insight into how.  Who will be left to stand up for the ACB...
> 3. You mention the statistic that few blind people are paid less than the
> minimum wage under the infamous Section 14(c).  This is a tired argument,
> and with Rich's public admission I now know of three NFB of CT leaders who
> were devalued by this provision.  And it's not just Goodwill, of course,
> like Semens and Phillips weren't the only users of concentration camp labor
> in Nazi Germany, but they are the worst--they'd have you think they're a
> charity!  The other two NFB of CT members were devalued at shops not
> affiliated with Goodwill.  Knowing so many blind people who have been
> devalued by this provision, in the context of this clip from the ACB
> convention I, as a thoughtful Republican and regular viewer of Fox News (I
> knew it was over when they called it for Obama!), will never think of the
> 99% and the 1% the same way again...
> Best,
> Nathanael
>
> On 09.11.2012 11:03, Richard McGaffin wrote:
> > --- On wrote:
> >
> >> From: Chris Kuell <ckuell at comcast.net>
> >> Subject: Re: [Ct-nfb] FW: ACB Resolution on H.R. 3086
> >> To: "NFB of Connecticut Mailing List" <ct-nfb at nfbnet.org>
> >> Date: Friday, November 9, 2012, 8:33 AM
> >>
> >> I know many ACB members who are capable, competent blind people.
> >> They believe in independence, Braille, and the right of all blind
> >> people to become active members in the workplace and society. Marcia
> >> dresser, who used to live in Connecticut and was the first VP of the
> >> ACB here, worked with us to help pass a Braille bill back in 1999. I
> >> was on several BESB committees with her, and I admire Marcia and her
> >> husband Steve, also blind and an active ACB member, very much. I've
> >> met people at national convention who are members of both NFB and
> >> ACB--although Dr. Maurer would certainly excommunicate them if he
> >> found out. Again, these are capable, competent, admirable blind
> >> people, who are networking and not judging people by affiliation, but
> >> rather by character.
> >>
> >> I see the ACB and NFB as completely analogous to republicans and
> >> democrats. Both groups have a vision for our country, but they have
> >> different ideas on how to get there. Neither side is evil, although I
> >> have my doubts about the folks at Fox news, but for some reason,
> >> people get fired up when they feel they have an enemy, which is how
> >> far too many NFBers and ACBers react. I've studied both
> >> organizations, and choose to be an NFB member because I think our
> >> philosophy best matches my own personality. But I don't think the ACB
> >> is wrong, just different. I would summarize this way: The NFB wants
> >> training and opportunities for blind people, while the ACB wants
> >> understanding and accommodations.
> >>
> >> I listened to the ACB audio clip, twice, and I find it fascinating
> >> how different people react to the same stimuli. I didn't hear any
> >> slamming of the NFB, I just heard a single sentence saying 'it's an
> >> NFB bill'. The sentence wasn't said with love or enthusiasm, and in
> >> fact probably held a little disdain, but I certainly wouldn't call it
> >> slamming.
> >>
> >> ACB's decision not to support HR 3086 is hardly comparable to Hitler
> >> gassing the Jews or the English exterminating Native Americans. It's
> >> a decision based on facts, math, and mission. NIB doesn't pay blind
> >> workers below minimum wage. Good will does, but by my
> >> calculation,it's very few blind people. The large majority of the few
> >> hundred disabled workers who receive below minimum wage are
> >> multi-disabled, almost all with severe cognitive disabilities. And
> >> the small percentage of blind people who are included in this class
> >> are also multi-disabled, with blindness the least of their troubles.
> >> Traditionally, the NFB has not fought on behalf of other
> >> disabilities, and DR. Maurer himself told me personally that 'it
> >> dilutes our message'. The NFB has decided to fight on behalf of
> >> people with other disabilities in taking on HR 3086, while the ACB
> >> has decided that they won't. It's not evil, it's simply a different
> >> viewpoint.
> >>
> >> Deb, are you sorry you asked? Smile.
> >>
> >> chris
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Ct-nfb mailing list
> >>
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