[nagdu] stress, how much is too much?

Sarah coastergirl92 at gmail.com
Tue Nov 13 21:44:16 UTC 2012


wizard has been turning ! head away from the harness as well and 
going to his bed when I put the harness on.  Should I be worried? 
I've been working him every day for at least like 30 minutes at a 
time except on Sundays.

Sarah and Wizard

 ----- Original Message -----
From: Ramona Davidson <ramonadavidson88 at gmail.com
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog 
Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 17:28:07 -0600
Subject: Re: [nagdu] stress, how much is too much?

i'm so gladd I stumbled across this particular thred.
for the last week, ishmael has been showing odd behaivier.  he 
hasn't
been paying attention when we're walking which has caused me to 
run in
to something, stumble or almost fall.  when i correct him he has
started pulling or lunging away from me like he's trying to run 
away
from me.  it hurts my back when he does this and throws me off
ballence.  a few times he's whipped me around corners at 
breakneck
spead and I know he's doing this because he's mad at me.  he only 
does
it right after i've corrected him.  recently i've had to move up 
to
harsher corrections because the lighter vurble corrections and 
one
handed corrections stopped working.  he's stressed, he has to be, 
but I
don't know what to do about it.  some days i get the feeling he 
just
doesn't even want to work for me.  everyone talks about how there 
dogs
are so excited to be able to work they practicly jump on to there
harnesses, ishmael has never done that and more often than not 
turns
his head away from the harness, someone help me.  i'm at my whits 
end.

On 11/12/12, Julie J.  <julielj at neb.rr.com> wrote:
 Robert,

 That's it exactly.  a bit of stress is a good thing.  If Monty 
didn't
 dance around in circles with anticipation when I picked up his 
harness
 I'd be worried.  I also like him to be a bit wary of cars, drop 
offs and
 construction sites.  It keeps him alert, on his toes and ready 
to do
 what he needs to do.  If he had zero stress when working he'd be 
bored
 and falling asleep on the street corner.  Okay the falling 
asleep is a
 bit of an exaggeration.  I view it like the stress a person 
might feel
 before the take the field for the football playoffs or 
something.  Your
 pumped up, ready to go, but with just a touch of anxiety.  
that's normal.

 The line between that normal, healthy anticipation variety of 
stress and
 the other variety of anxious, nervous unhealthy stress is a fine 
one.
 I'm hoping folks here have some insight into defining just where 
that
 line is.  and maybe more importantly what to do when your on the 
wrong
 side of it.

 Thoughts?
 Julie


 On 11/12/2012 2:14 PM, Robert Hooper wrote:
 Hello Julie:

 I will first speak to your inquiry regarding "how much stress is 
too much
 stress".
 I, like most everyone on this list, view the human-dog team as 
exactly
 that--a team.  Of course, there is a pack hierarchy, but when 
the dog is in
 harness, the two are much closer to being equal members of the 
same team.
 I say "almost" because I don't want to portray an unrealistic 
and maudlin
 view of what a guide team is.  Because we humans have the 
greater skill in
 leadership and decision making, we will always (or should 
always) assume
 the role of leader, even when working the dog.  However, think 
of yourself
 as a teacher, and remember that the dog is a dynamic, living 
creature that
 can feel stress, pain, joy, etc.  Julie, I know that you know 
this, and
 thinking of a relationship in this way can help answer your 
question.
 Because we don't view dogs as tools, we therefore know we have 
an ethical
 obligation to their well-being.  Thus, I wouldn't ask my dog to 
work when
 doing so causes him unhealthy stress.  Of course, some level of 
stress is
 necessary and healthy for learning and work, but there is a 
definite
 curve--that is, the benefits of stress increase with stress only 
so far,
 and then they start going the other way.
 We want our dogs to be happy and to enjoy their work; we don't 
want to
 make them think that they are being forced to do anything 
against their
 wills.  They aren't slaves, they are companions, partners, and 
family
 members--and if they aren't enjoying or taking pleasure from 
their work,
 then I don't think one should continue pressing them to do it.
 Julie: as you know Monty best, you can best determine what is 
making him
 happy and what is making him anxious or stressed.  If he loves 
his normal
 work, or seems to respond to it in a manner normal for him, then 
I would
 guess that he still enjoys it.  If you are noticing that this 
abnormal
 behavior is only occurring when you participate in these 
conventions,
 meetings, etc., then you could probably conclude that this 
amount of work
 is too stressful to be enjoyable to him.  Therefore, you can 
make other
 arrangements for him when you need to travel.
 I want Bailey to enjoy his work--I know that there are probably 
days when
 he doesn't enjoy it as much, or when he isn't as sharp as usual, 
but so
 long as he enjoys it, and it isn't causing him undue stress, I 
will gladly
 give him work to do.  I know you will make the best decision, as 
you have
 far more experience with dogs than I do.  I do hope that Monty 
continues to
 work well and happily for many more years.
 Sincerely,
 Robert Hooper
 Hooper.90 at buckeyemail.osu.edu
 The Ohio State University, Department of Psychology; Department 
of
 Neuroscience
 572 Stinchcomb Drive #3
 Columbus, Ohio 43202
 (740) 856-8195


 -----Original Message-----
 From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie 
J.
 Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 2:26 PM
 To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog 
Users
 Subject: Re: [nagdu] stress, how much is too much?

 Thanks!  Those are reactions to stress that I wouldn't have 
thought of.
 It makes sense though.  I like to go to bed early when I've had 
a rough
 day.

 I think it's important, especially for the new handlers, to 
recognize
 stress/anxiety at it's first signs.  then the situation can be 
managed or
 extra encouragement provided to the dog before the problem 
escalates into
 a huge ordeal.  I think knowing when your dog has had enough and 
what to
 do about it is very important stuff.
 Do the schools provide a seminar or something on noticing stress 
signals
 from you dog?  What about how to calm a stressed dog?

 Julie



 On 11/12/2012 11:35 AM, Tracy Carcione wrote:
 Sometimes, if we're away at a festival or convention, and Ben 
has
 worked from morning to night for a couple days, I can tell that 
he's
 wants a break.  If we're out late, he starts looking toward the 
door,
 or turning forcefully towards our room.
 During class at TSE, on the weekend before the third week, he 
just
 shut down.  He wouldn't get up when I called him.  He tried to 
crawl
 under the bed and hide when I picked up his leash.  It was very
 upsetting.  But I learned then that his reaction to stress is to
 sleep.  If I let him rest, leave him in peace for a while, he's 
back to
 his usual self.
 Tracy
 I'm wondering how your dog's show that they are stressed and how 
much
 is too much?

 a bit of background...a few months ago I went to an all day 
meeting
 out of town.  This involved about 8 hours of car travel there, 
an
 overnight hotel stay, the all day meeting, another hotel stay 
and the
 car ride home.  Monty has done all of these sorts of things 
before and
 since.
 Before this weekend he showed few signs of stress and they were 
minor.
 However for some reason still unknown to me Monty had a tough 
time
 this particular weekend.  His signs of stress included: looking 
at
 everything incessantly, startling at noises, lip licking, 
difficulty
 relaxing  at relief breaks, shaking and pulling like a crazed 
maniac in
 harness.

 For me his signs of stress were pretty high.  If he had 
continued at
 that level I would have stopped working him.  We have struggled 
off
 and on for the past few months with smaller episodes of 
stress/anxiety.
 Overall things have improved dramatically.  Occasionally he will 
do
 the lip licking and the looking at everything, but he's not at a
 level that I feel is risky to his or my health or  safety.

 Recent messages to the list and my own situation caused me to 
think
 about and ask the questions: How much is too much?  What would 
cause
 you to quit working a dog completely? What would cause you to 
quit
 working a dog in a particular situation?

 Julie


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